Gothmog, Orc or Not?

ForgottenLore · **Joined:** Sun Mar 27, 2011 10:47 pm **Posts:** 491

Ritcherd wrote:

Can anyone quote from the book? I'm interested in where he was mentioned

J.R.R. Tolkien wrote:

...for new strength came now streaming to the field out of Osgiliath. There had they been mustered for the sack of the City and the Rape of Gondor, waiting the call of their Captain. He was now destroyed; but Gothmog the lieutenant of Morgul had flung them into the fray;

Then a list of the various forces called including Easterlings, Variags of Khand, Southrons and black men like half trolls out of Far Harad.

And that is the total information we have on Gothmog, the Lieutenant of Morgul. PJ choose to make him an orc.

Ninja'd

Ritcherd · **Posted:** Sun Jul 03, 2011 8:01 pm

another mystery in the world of Tolkien then, i suppose. Like Tom Bombadil

GothmogtheWerewolf · **Posted:** Sun Jul 03, 2011 8:08 pm

It's a greater mystery than Bombadil as he is likely Maiar.
By the way that quote about Gothmog rallying Easterlings, Southrons, Variags, and"Black men like half trolls out of Far Harad" is definately one of my two favourite quotes in the book. The other is my signature.

Mighty.Uruk!!! · **Joined:** Thu Jul 07, 2011 5:58 pm **Posts:** 236

ah wow, so in the book it only mentions him once and it doesn't seem to give any idea on who it is, great
oh well, i reckon he would be a black numenorian or a very smart orc. wonder how many other ideas people have

jscottbowman · **Posted:** Thu Oct 13, 2011 12:04 am

Got to say I dont see him as a Nazgul.
I am inclined to think Black Numenorean, similar to MoS.
I can go along with a large brutal fearsome orc, but PJs depiction of him is just about the only characterisation in the movie I dont like - why he made him a 'piggy' looking deformed orc with gimpy arm I cant imagine. He seems so pathetic even my ol' granny could have beaten him. His fight scene with Eowyn is pathetic...

ForgottenLore · **Joined:** Sun Mar 27, 2011 10:47 pm **Posts:** 491

jscottbowman wrote:

PJs depiction of him is just about the only characterisation in the movie I dont like - why he made him a 'piggy' looking deformed orc with gimpy arm I cant imagine.

I think that is the point. This is an orc who is massively crippled. Basically one arm, gimp leg, probably blind in one eye, yet he manages to become and continues to be the commander in chief of a huge army of orcs, one of the most back-stabbing, opportunistic races ever conceived. For him to have done that means he must be one unbelievably badass orc.

jscottbowman · **Posted:** Thu Oct 13, 2011 4:49 am

@ Forgottenlore

We are of course all entitled to out opinions on the matter, and I can see the point you are making, but it still doesnt work for me.

If anything I see the race of orcs and their 'leadership' truely being a survival of the fittest type thing, and the form portrayed by PJs Gothmog is anything but fit. Even if he had taken these injuries on his climb to power, I would have imagined an orc, one step down the chain of command could take him out in an equally backstabbing way, and thus rise to power...

To stay in command of orcs, you'd have to be able to brutalise them into submission and command them that way. I dont see PJ's Gothmog being able to do that, unlike the UrukHai Ugluk who clearly dominated through fear and ability.

Just my take on it.

regards
Scott

GothmogtheWerewolf · **Posted:** Thu Oct 13, 2011 2:26 pm

jscottbowman, Gothmog in the film has his pet warg to keep orcs away, and also, because Gothmog was so good at strategy, the Witch-king had something to gain by making sure he remained in charge and the othjer orcs would be far too scared of the Witch-king to kill his favourite orc.

WayUnderTheMountain · **Posted:** Thu Oct 13, 2011 2:51 pm

I have only one reason that I don't like Gothmog as a orc. My reason is that the force he unleashed at the Battle of Pelennor Fields was all Men. Easterling, Haradrim on their Mumakil, Southrons, Variags, Half-trolls, etc. I don't see an orc no matter how 'powerful' or 'strategic' is going to be able to command a Fallen Realms army without a Nazgul standing right beside him as Men refuse to bend knee to an orc but not so to a Nazgul or Sauron. I personally think that Gothmog, Lieutenant of Minas Morgul, was the mortal leader of the Morgul Knights as a terrifying Black Numenorian Commander would be better at controlling an army of men.

Also, I don't like that Gothmog the Orc was with the main force beseiging Minas Tirith when the Rohirrim came because then he died both before and well away from where he could summon the Fallen Realms army to join the fray.

GothmogtheWerewolf · **Posted:** Thu Oct 13, 2011 3:10 pm

WayUnderTheMountain wrote:

I have only one reason that I don't like Gothmog as a orc. My reason is that the force he unleashed at the Battle of Pelennor Fields was all Men. Easterling, Haradrim on their Mumakil, Southrons, Variags, Half-trolls, etc. I don't see an orc no matter how 'powerful' or 'strategic' is going to be able to command a Fallen Realms army without a Nazgul standing right beside him as Men refuse to bend knee to an orc but not so to a Nazgul or Sauron. I personally think that Gothmog, Lieutenant of Minas Morgul, was the mortal leader of the Morgul Knights as a terrifying Black Numenorian Commander would be better at controlling an army of men.

Also, I don't like that Gothmog the Orc was with the main force beseiging Minas Tirith when the Rohirrim came because then he died both before and well away from where he could summon the Fallen Realms army to join the fray.

Black Numeonorean yes, but not Morgul Knights, (and Black Numenoreans are immortal not mortal) apart from that I agree, I think, hence I started this thread ages ago which someone decised to bring back.

Oh and I don't like the phrase 'Fallen Realms' being used to descibe them outsid of game terms, as Mordor and Isengard are Fallen Realms IMO

jscottbowman · **Posted:** Thu Oct 13, 2011 7:50 pm

GothmogtheWerewolf wrote:

Black Numeonorean yes, but not Morgul Knights, (and Black Numenoreans are immortal not mortal) apart from that I agree, I think, hence I started this thread ages ago which someone decised to bring back.

Not sure where you get the idea Black Numenoreans are immortal?
The Black Numenoreans, were Numenoreans who turned to worship Sauron, but they were mortal men none the less. They would have been long lived men, like Aragorn, but certainly mortal.
The only immortal race were the Elves.

GothmogtheWerewolf · **Posted:** Thu Oct 13, 2011 8:04 pm

Immortal as an wraith-like, they could live for thousands of years. And Elves aren't only race; Orcs.

WayUnderTheMountain · **Posted:** Thu Oct 13, 2011 8:10 pm

GothmogtheWerewolf wrote:

Black Numeonorean yes, but not Morgul Knights, (and Black Numenoreans are immortal not mortal) apart from that I agree, I think, hence I started this thread ages ago which someone decised to bring back.

Oh and I don't like the phrase 'Fallen Realms' being used to descibe them outsid of game terms, as Mordor and Isengard are Fallen Realms IMO

I don't understand. How is a Black Numenrorean immortal when a Numenorean was not? The Numenoreans at the height of their power were still mortal though their lives were many times longer than those of the lesser men. There is a significant difference between being immortal (like Elves or Istari, never dying of old age) and long-lived (like Numernoreans and their descendants).

How the heck do you find Orcs as immortal?

As for your distaste of the word Fallen Realms outside gameplay, I care not for it is arguable either way. Mordor never really fell because it was always Sauron's and its denizens were not Men, Elves or Dwarves. Isengard was never a realm, just a lone fortress at the base of the Misty Mountains that watched the Gap of Rohan with an Uruk-Hai army. Meanwhile the Mannish Kingdoms of Rhun, Harad, Khand and Angmar were not originally evil and were swayed to join Sauron's legions. That said, Angmar became a realm of spirits and monsters with the only Barbarians of Carn Dum (originally Arnorian) being of the race of Men. Hence you have the 'Fallen Realms' of Men. Methinks from now on I'll just call them the Evil Kingdoms of Men (I'm still grouping them under one general banner) to avoid antagonizing or confusing people.

GothmogtheWerewolf · **Posted:** Thu Oct 13, 2011 8:17 pm

Black Numeonoreans were granted a near-immortality by Sauron; see the Mouth of Sauron.

Orcs are immortal because they were made from elves, why would they cease to be immortal, even if somehow they did somehow they could still live for thousands of tears.

WayUnderTheMountain · **Posted:** Thu Oct 13, 2011 8:38 pm

GothmogtheWerewolf wrote:

Black Numeonoreans were granted a near-immortality by Sauron; see the Mouth of Sauron.

Orcs are immortal because they were made from elves, why would they cease to be immortal, even if somehow they did somehow they could still live for thousands of tears.

I'll concede the orc immortality because I can't think of a way to prove or disprove it. They usually get killed off before they reach old age. :lol:

I took a look in Return of the King and Tolkien says that the Mouth of Sauron joined Sauron's service when Barad-Dur was rebuilt. Barad-dur was rebuilt late Second Age so I could see the Mouth of Sauron being considered immortal.

GothmogtheWerewolf · **Posted:** Thu Oct 13, 2011 8:41 pm

Hehe thanks. :lol:

at the bit about orc getting killed off before anyone can prove if they're immortal or not.

Beowulf03809 · **Posted:** Thu Oct 13, 2011 9:01 pm

I doubt he's immortal. The Mouth's extra longevity could very well be a "reward" for him. There have been some theories put out that he may have been granted a lesser Ring and it extended his life, but I think just being closely tied to the Dark Lord in such direct service could be enough to extend even a Numenorian's life significantly and it would serve the Sauron's purpose as well if he has a consistent and trusted Lieutenant.

As for the Orcs, just because they were a corrupted product of Elf does not mean that the Valar's gift of immortality would continue on with them.

The use of the name Gothmog for the Lieutenant at the siege of Minas Tirith always bugged me. JRRT already had a Balrog from the First Age with that name. And now we come to the Third Age and he brings the name up again.

I too agree that a Black Numenorian, similar to the Mouth, would have been a very good idea for the character and probably more inline with how I always envisioned the stroy. But the greater Orc was ok from the perspective of how the movies were made. There was an extra sense of danger when both Saruman and Sauron were using forces of Orc to destroy the world of Men. It's something that even non-Tolkien fans can understand and relate to in the context of a film. And it eliminates the need to develop too much of the political landscape of Middle Earth. As for him remaining in power despite his physical issues (considering that Orcs are ruled by might in most respects), if you go back to the little bit that is written of him (VERY little) he is the WK's lieutenant. And as such would have been trained by him in all manners of leading an army and anyone would know he speaks for the WK. If anyone failed to obey or tried to injure him, he would likely have to answer to the WK himself. Even the dumbest Orc in Mordor would understand what THAT means. After all, the WK can find anyone to be muscle. It takes time and training to be a strategic leader.

All said though, in my Dol Guldur force I have been considering a Gothmog-profile character for larger, more competative games but had no interest in it being Gothmog itself. As I already use the Mouth in that army I was considering the Dark Marshal model as the base for a conversion (maybe with some Morgul Knight parts to swap with) for what I would have liked to have seen.

GothmogtheWerewolf · **Posted:** Thu Oct 13, 2011 9:06 pm

I would use Dark Marshal model, with a shield and official Gothmog's head. Also, about Orcs immortality, mortality is the gift of Illuvitar, why would he give his gift to the slaves of Morgoth and Sauron.

Also, if anyone wants to see a picture of John Howe (who scetched for the films)'s depiction of Gothmog as a Black Numenorean, look no further than my avatar.

ForgottenLore · **Joined:** Sun Mar 27, 2011 10:47 pm **Posts:** 491

WayUnderTheMountain wrote:

I have only one reason that I don't like Gothmog as a orc. My reason is that the force he unleashed at the Battle of Pelennor Fields was all Men.

No, the Siege of Gondor chapter specifically mentions orcs as being involved in digging the trenches that surrounded the city.

WayUnderTheMountain · **Posted:** Fri Oct 14, 2011 4:11 am

Yet it was the Witch King who commanded the Seige of Minas Tirith, where the Orcs you mentioned participated, while Gothmog, Lieutenant of Morgul, was in Osgiliath in command of the reinforcements which consisted of Evil Men.

ForgottenLore wrote:

J.R.R. Tolkien wrote:

...for new strength came now streaming to the field out of Osgiliath. There had they been mustered for the sack of the City and the Rape of Gondor, waiting the call of their Captain. He was now destroyed; but Gothmog the lieutenant of Morgul had flung them into the fray;

Then a list of the various forces called including Easterlings, Variags of Khand, Southrons and black men like half trolls out of Far Harad.

I see no references to Orcs in the force that marched out of Osgiliath at Gothmog's command and Tolkien's wording (flung versus brought) suggests Gothmog was not yet on the Fields of the Pelennor until the Witch King fell and he moved up to consolidate against the Charge of the Rohirrim and the sallying forces of Minas Tirith under Prince Imrahil. Also, it would have taken too long a time for Gothmog to signal or send a messenger across the Pelennor in the midst of the onset of the Rohirrim and after the Witch King fell for the reinforcements to arrive as soon as they did. Unless the Witch King had told Gothmog to send word before his demise in which case the reinforcements from Osgiliath would have answered their Captain's call, Gothmog must have been with the second force and seeing the disaster, ordered his troops to move up.

Gothmog, Orc or Not?

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