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Hobbit Pub threatened with legal action
http://test.one-ring.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=22730		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  Sticky Fingersss [ Wed Mar 14, 2012 8:28 am ]
Post subject:  Hobbit Pub threatened with legal action
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-hampshire-17350103
Author:  Pindergorn [ Wed Mar 14, 2012 9:23 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Hobbit Pub threatened with legal action
Yea, heard about this. As I understand it, its a trivial lawsuit by a Director who once held the Film rights to the Hobbit, but lost them to Jackson. And so hes trying to back up his claim by suing lots of people. So they're just pawns really in a game over money. In any case, the pub's designs pre-date any Middle Earth movies so are clearly based on the book and not the Film (which this guy isn't even making). In which case, it should be the Tolkien Estate suing.

Tolkien would be apalled. This sort of creativity is exactly the sort of thing he wanted for the LOTR IP - he envisioned Middle Earth as a communal folk lore, or alternative mythology, in which any artists and creative people could explore with new material such as songs, stories, artwork, and even Models.
Author:  Sacrilege83 [ Wed Mar 14, 2012 10:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Hobbit Pub threatened with legal action
I don't think this has to do with a director, it mentions the Saul Zeants Company (spelling?) which basically owns The Hobbit & LOTR licenses. This story kind of makes me sick as well. I don't know all the details of it or the legalities of copyright law, but I'm amazed when a foreigner can come in and sue you for something that you're doing in your own country. Tolkien Estate can't sue because they no longer have the rights, but knowing the Cranky old man Christopher Tolkien, he'd probably sue if the pub's name was Tom Bombadil or something. I do find it absurd though that U.S. lawyers can have such an international grasp.

So who here knows copyright law and can shine some explanations on this subject? Does SZC have legal grounds to sue and win or will The Hobbit watering hole will come out of this un-scorched?
Author:  WayUnderTheMountain [ Thu Mar 15, 2012 1:08 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Hobbit Pub threatened with legal action
It's hard to say, Sacrilege. I have a limited knowledge of copyright law but I'll do what I can. If SZC has filed its copyright in the UK, then the Hobbit really doesn't have much of a choice. However, If SZC did not file its copyrights in the UK, then the whole issue is clouded. Its contract may say it has world-wide copyright on the Lord of the Rings series, but according to international law, they must submit their copyright in each country they wish to enforce it in. Although, the USA has recently been trying to introduce bills that effectively allows the US government to enforce American copyrights world wide.

I don't see why The Hobbit and SZC couldn't broker a deal where The Hobbit keeps running as it is other than it has to pay some kind of royalty. Its potentially more income for SZC in the long run and more agreeable than lawsuits for The Hobbit.
Author:  Sticky Fingersss [ Sun Mar 18, 2012 9:11 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Hobbit Pub threatened with legal action
http://uk.news.yahoo.com/now--gandalf-- ... ction.html

In Mckellen gives his back.
Author:  Sacrilege83 [ Sun Mar 18, 2012 2:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Hobbit Pub threatened with legal action
Read the comment board on that article. There seems to be much anti-american sentiment by many users. Understandable but not really justified. An American company sues a small-time foreign local business; start bringing out the American flags to have them burned.

There also seems to be much confusion on that board as well since people are posting really their feelings with no knowledge of the background of the situation, for that they are called ignorant by others but I don't blame them; who really cares enough in taking the time to know the background unless you're really interested. Majority of commentors, especially Brits no surprise, believe that the Saul Zaents Company (SZC, American, the legal owner of "LOTR" & "The Hobbit" for film & merchandising, misc., but not the books I believe) has no right in sueing a local pub simply for its name, or because it's themed off of the books and the pub being around for 20 years where the movies only being a decade. If I'm not mistaken SZC has own the rights for more than 3 or 4 decades now. So SZC legally has a claim to a worldwide trademark and copyright.

Does it make it morally and ethically right? I don't believe so, my opinion only. It's the classic big guy bullying the little guy even though the big guy does have a case. What makes it worse is that it's international, on top of that the intellectual property being disputed has been made in the UK though bought for cheap in the US. This stink is giving the American company a bad PR, so it might be backfiring on them. And now the actors backing the little pub puts even more of an eye of Sauron light on the issue.
Author:  Sacrilege83 [ Sun Mar 18, 2012 2:15 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Hobbit Pub threatened with legal action
WayUnderTheMountain wrote:
I don't see why The Hobbit and SZC couldn't broker a deal where The Hobbit keeps running as it is other than it has to pay some kind of royalty. Its potentially more income for SZC in the long run and more agreeable than lawsuits for The Hobbit.

By that Yahoo article that Stickyfingers has posted, it seems that is what SZC is trying to do now. A royalty charge of something like $100 annually, peanuts right? But points are being raised on the comment board; if The Hobbit pub gives into this, this is just the tip of the iceberg for the SZC or a testing ground. How many more unapproved merchandising is being sold out there worldwide? SZC will be out on a witch hunt.
Author:  GothmogtheWerewolf [ Sun Mar 18, 2012 4:01 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Hobbit Pub threatened with legal action
Sael Zentz company do have license to the books of Lord of the Rings and the Hobbit, they gave out the licence to New Line Cinema to make the films. Saul Zentz bought it if the company that Tolkien himslef sold it to.
Author:  Sacrilege83 [ Sun Mar 18, 2012 6:53 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Hobbit Pub threatened with legal action
Hmm.. I always thought the Tolkien Estate owned the literary rights I looked at my own copy it has the Tolkien Estate logo, but from the quick glance through I gave it I saw no Tolkien enterprises logo (SZC).
Author:  GothmogtheWerewolf [ Sun Mar 18, 2012 7:01 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Hobbit Pub threatened with legal action
Tolkien Enterprise has been renamed Middle-eairth Enterprise by the way, their new logo is on the new SBG sourcebooks.

The Tolkien Estate has literary rights to all of Tolkien's other works and have no intention of giving anyone rights to them for films, games, minis or anything else, since Tolkien sold LotR and the Hobbit to a company in his lifetime (which sold it to Saul Zentz), the Tolkien Estate, run by Chris Tolkien doesn't excllusively have LotR and the Hobbit.

As to the sueing the pub, well, it's not like I'd vever go to it anyway.
Author:  Sacrilege83 [ Mon Mar 19, 2012 1:46 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Hobbit Pub threatened with legal action
I know the "Enterprise" has changed their name now, still that wouldn't change the label on my old books or Lotr video games. Anyway I'll take your word for it and not bother to wiki the subject.

Yeah I'll never visit the pub in my life also and it won't affect me whatsoever. Just let's not become too apathetic or else we'll turn into an orc, then again I'm saying this to a poster who likes everything that is evil... ;)
Author:  Draugluin [ Mon Mar 19, 2012 4:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Hobbit Pub threatened with legal action
They've trademarked (or whatever it is, I always forget the proper terms) the name Hobbit, so they have the legal right to charge people for the use of the term, if that person is gaining money from it. That's why we can use TM stuff in our profiles here, because we aren't gaining anything from it.
Author:  GothmogtheWerewolf [ Mon Mar 19, 2012 9:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Hobbit Pub threatened with legal action
Sacrilege83 wrote:
Just let's not become too apathetic or else we'll turn into an orc, then again I'm saying this to a poster who likes everything that is evil... ;)


Hmm, not the best way to make a point :twisted: I agree anyway though [Go Orcs! :D - oops]

@Draugluin, I too can't remember the difference between TM, Copyright, or Registered.
Author:  Ring_of_Gyges [ Tue Mar 20, 2012 12:27 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Hobbit Pub threatened with legal action
Copyright, trademark, patent, and trade secret are all different things that are collectively known as intellectual property.

A patent is a legal monopoly to have exclusive use of a method of solving some problem. You could patent a construction technique, a piece of software, or an invention, but none of that is at issue here. A trade secret is something that is kept secret and penalties apply to people who reveal the secret without permission, again nothing to do with the pub.

A trademark (registered or not) is a brand name. Xerox is a trade mark, Coke is a trademark. "The Hobbit" may well be a trade mark, either because someone has registered it (i.e. officially announced they are using it as a mark) or because it has become associated with a product. The purpose of protecting trade marks is to allow the public to know the source of goods. I can't brew my own cola and sell it as "Coke", I can't sculpt my own miniatures and sell them as "Games Workshop". People are supposed to know that when they see a particular brand name, they know that it is made by the people who own that brand. Will reasonable consumers believe that the pub is officially linked with New Line, the Tolkien estate, or the Saul Z company? If so, they've got a valid trademark suit. It would be a question of fact for a jury.

A copyright protects against direct copying of a work, books, pictures, music, etc can be protected by copyright. Saying "The Hobbit" doesn't violate copyright, reproducing big chunks of text does. The middle ground gets messy, but merely naming the place the Hobbit isn't a violation of copyright. What unambiguously *is* a violation of copyright is printing stills from the movie on your loyalty cards. The use of images of Elijah Woods as Frodo and Cate Blanchett as Galadriel violates New Line' right to control copying of those images. There are some exceptions for parody, reviews, and other "fair use", but straight up taking the images and putting them on your merchandize is going to lose.

The owner complains about the costs of "fighting Hollywood", but really the costs cut both ways. Litigation is expensive, in even a simple case like this tens of thousands of dollars expensive. Does New Line believe it is so injured by the infringement that it wants to spend tens of thousands shutting it down? My guess would be no. Yeah its a violation, but does New Line really believe it is hurt?* Any sane legal department would tell them there isn't anything to gain by suing, any sane PR department would tell them there is a lot to lose. Selling a license for a nominal fee is a good deal for both sides, it's nice to see that everyone looks like they've noticed that.

*The article mentions "Hollywood" which would be New Line, but also the Saul Zaentz company who own I don't know what. Either way, the suit isn't worth the trouble. Even more so if SZ doesn't own the rights to the images from the movies and would have to go after the much weaker claim against the name of the cafe and the names of the drinks.
Author:  Sacrilege83 [ Tue Mar 20, 2012 2:39 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Hobbit Pub threatened with legal action
^Thank you for the definitions and explanations. Yeah taking images fromthe films to put them on things in your tavern seems to be crossing the line, so New Line definitely would have a case. SZC holds the merchadising rights of The Hobbit & LOTR, so drinks and other things named after characters from the books should cease right away. I don't see how the pub's name should be a serious issue though, unless of course because of the whole trademark thing.

Yeah the pub should settle on paying a small annual royalty it seems, still is sickening though.
Author:  Pindergorn [ Tue Mar 20, 2012 3:38 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Hobbit Pub threatened with legal action
The galling thing is that they are using the works of a dead genius author as a legal football in the pursuit of money and commercial power. Saul Zaentz has no connection to the LOTR or the Hobbit beyond the fact that he purchased some merchandising and film rights and made an animated movie - he contributed nothing to the books or the live action films. The Pub in question appears to have using (albeit without permission) the Middle Earth source material for longer than Zaentz owned the rights (might be wrong on that).

As I understand, he and his company fear losing their film and merchandising rights so they're suing lots of small businesses to reinforce their trademark (the principle that to keep a trademark etc you have to show that you are actively enforcing it). Basically, this pub and anyone else they're suing are just pawns in their bid to wrest back control over the franchise.

Oh and is anyone else irritated that these Hollywood types are targeting British businesses? Tolkien was British. Its the thing I hate most about the Hollywood film industry and the only thing I genuinely hate about American culture - that they appropriate aspects of foreign cultures as their own (take the myriad WW2 films based on "real events" starring Americans as the heroes when in reality they were British, Australian, Commonwealth etc heroes).
Author:  Draugluin [ Tue Mar 20, 2012 12:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Hobbit Pub threatened with legal action
They LEGALLY purchased his works, so they can do whatever they want with them, within the boundaries of the contract of course. If the Pub didn't have permission, then the owners of the (SZ) have completely legal reasons for suing them.

If you had the rights to the largest fantasy epic (which happens to be worth an INCREDIBLE amount, like multi-multi-multi-billions, of dollars) ever, you would do anything to make sure that you would keep it. A FOR PROFIT company trying to make money? GASP! Who'd have known that that's how the world works.

Maybe the only business' to target are British. I haven't heard of a single LotR related pub in the US. It's not American culture that steals it, it's Hollywood. All they're trying to do is make money (again, GASP!) and they can take whatever story they want. Besides, the only WW2 movie that had an American in it that I know of who wasn't actually there was The Great Escape. And I've seen ALOT of WW2 movies.
Author:  Sacrilege83 [ Tue Mar 20, 2012 4:03 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Hobbit Pub threatened with legal action
King Ondoher wrote:
The Pub in question appears to have using (albeit without permission) the Middle Earth source material for longer than Zaentz owned the rights (might be wrong on that).

The cartoon was made long before the pub, so SZ had the rights a long time ago. The pub is only 20 something years old.

I understand your frustration king Ondoher, but there's nothing the little man can do about it.
Author:  Draugluin [ Tue Mar 20, 2012 5:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Hobbit Pub threatened with legal action
You all need to stop blaming SZ, if the Pub broke any copyright laws SZ has EVERY right to sue them. If you have a problem with it, then blame the people who made the laws.
Author:  Sacrilege83 [ Tue Mar 20, 2012 5:53 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Hobbit Pub threatened with legal action
No reason to get all touchy & upset now there... I do agree that SZC has rights to legal action as previous stated, so not all of us here are "blaming them", still I'm somewhat sympathetic towards the little guy.
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