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Possible plot-hole about Gandalf's staff
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Author:  spuds4ever [ Mon May 09, 2011 11:38 am ]
Post subject:  Possible plot-hole about Gandalf's staff
Hi all,

Just realised, when Gandalf escaped from Orthanc on Gwaihir, how did he get his staff back as Saruman took it (I don't know if this is the case in the books but I can't be bothered to go over the chapter :P). Can someone prove me wrong?
Author:  {aD}??? [ Mon May 09, 2011 12:04 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Possible plot-hole about Gandalf's staff
Don't know about books but in the movie his staff is a different looking one after orthanc. I may be wrong though have a look.
Author:  Dagorlad [ Mon May 09, 2011 1:06 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Possible plot-hole about Gandalf's staff
Maybe he had a spare? He certainly managed to keep Glamdring and the Elven Ring away from Saruman's clutches during his captivity, so maybe he had a secret stash somewhere.
Author:  ForgottenLore [ Mon May 09, 2011 3:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Possible plot-hole about Gandalf's staff
I brought this up on warseer once and no one could come to any conclusions.

The books don't really address it. They don't outright say Sauruman took his staff, but I can't imagine he was allowed to keep it.

In the movies I am pretty sure his staff doesn't change until after Moria. From Rivendell until the fight with the Balrog it is still the same one he starts with.

As for Glamdring and the Elven Ring, I don't think he carried Glamdring around with him on a regular basis. He was going to visit a friend and ally and had no reason to think he might need his sword so I don't think that is a problem. The Elven Rings were hidden, Sauruman would not have been able to percieve it on Gandalf's finger. Remember that Frodo was only able to see Galadriel's because he bore the One and had seen the great eye.

The staff is a problem though, unless there is some reason, that Tolkien never went into, why a Wizard CAN'T be parted from his staff. Making Gandalf's breaking of Sauruman's all the more potent a statement later and making the scene in the movie where the Witch King breaks Gandalf's even more ridiculous.
Author:  Eorling [ Mon May 09, 2011 5:17 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Possible plot-hole about Gandalf's staff
Sounds like a plot hole to me, but a forgivable one. Has anyone else noticed that he keeps his pipe in the top of his staff? It slots right into a twisted burl at the top which you can see in some close ups :). Nice touch, not sure if the Perry's incorporated it ito their sculpts - I don't have any Gandalf the Grey's.
Author:  whafrog [ Mon May 09, 2011 5:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Possible plot-hole about Gandalf's staff
ForgottenLore wrote:
As for Glamdring and the Elven Ring, I don't think he carried Glamdring around with him on a regular basis. He was going to visit a friend and ally and had no reason to think he might need his sword so I don't think that is a problem.


Except for the miles and miles of hostile terrain between them...

Quote:
The staff is a problem though, unless there is some reason, that Tolkien never went into, why a Wizard CAN'T be parted from his staff. Making Gandalf's breaking of Sauruman's all the more potent a statement later and making the scene in the movie where the Witch King breaks Gandalf's even more ridiculous.


I think it's more a characteristic of the times, when high rank enemies were still treated with the utmost cordiality. Saruman would hardly stoop to despoiling Gandalf of his sword. It would both speak poorly of his own sense of honour, and would also suggest that Saruman had something to fear. Watch some old movies even as recently as WW2, and how the Germans or the British dealt with their ranked captives. Heck, read Treasure Island, it's filled with that stuff.

The movie's wizard duel was ridiculous. The only contest those two would engage in would be a contest of wills. They never came to blows. We live in a comparatively crass age where if you're not physically whacking someone, you aren't winning or making your point...kind of sad.
Author:  Gildor Inglorion [ Mon May 09, 2011 8:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Possible plot-hole about Gandalf's staff
The LOTR "Weapons and Warfare" book says of Glamdring:
Quote:
Gandalf carried Glamdring with him throughout the War of the Ring, except when he visited Saruman at Orthanc, where perhaps some foresight made him leave it behind, fortuitously storing it in Rivendell.

This could just be artistic license, but the writers did have access to a lot of background info about the film (the book is a different matter obviously). Not sure about the staff though.
Quote:
The movie's wizard duel was ridiculous. The only contest those two would engage in would be a contest of wills. They never came to blows. We live in a comparatively crass age where if you're not physically whacking someone, you aren't winning or making your point...kind of sad.

Very true.. well said.

I also find it interesting that Gandalf's staff broke when he destroyed the Bridge of Khazad-dum... so he was bereft of its support throughout his epic duel with the Balrog.
Author:  WayUnderTheMountain [ Mon May 09, 2011 9:25 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Possible plot-hole about Gandalf's staff
Really simple answer that solves nothing: Hammer space.
Author:  Ultragreek [ Tue May 10, 2011 6:12 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Possible plot-hole about Gandalf's staff
Another answer:Staffs are going back to their master
Author:  Sticky Fingersss [ Wed May 11, 2011 2:52 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Possible plot-hole about Gandalf's staff
Quote:
The movie's wizard duel was ridiculous. The only contest those two would engage in would be a contest of wills. They never came to blows. We live in a comparatively crass age where if you're not physically whacking someone, you aren't winning or making your point...kind of sad.


So how would you have filmed it then, just make them stare at each other frantically? Yeah... pretty exciting scene. They are some things that in books you can transform on the screens, so you have to take things literrally, just like the eye of sauron.
Author:  ForgottenLore [ Wed May 11, 2011 4:02 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Possible plot-hole about Gandalf's staff
Very true. And it is an aspect that many people never seem to get.

I was actually pretty happy with the wizard's duel in the films
Author:  whafrog [ Wed May 11, 2011 10:55 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Possible plot-hole about Gandalf's staff
Sticky Fingersss wrote:
So how would you have filmed it then, just make them stare at each other frantically? Yeah... pretty exciting scene. They are some things that in books you can transform on the screens, so you have to take things literrally, just like the eye of sauron.


Are you kidding? You're making my point, no imagination beyond physical violence. There are plenty of examples of conversational eye-to-eye tension that work well in movies. Or you can break out of the literal visual space, like when they zoomed in on Gandalf's eye after the Balrog fight. The most recent movie I watched was Ink, plenty of examples of both in there.

Besides, in the book they didn't even have a conflict, Gandalf just went to his cell, and rode off on the eagle before any real battle of wills began.
Author:  Ultragreek [ Wed May 11, 2011 2:45 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Possible plot-hole about Gandalf's staff
Quote:
Are you kidding? You're making my point, no imagination beyond physical violence. There are plenty of examples of conversational eye-to-eye tension that work well in movies. Or you can break out of the literal visual space, like when they zoomed in on Gandalf's eye after the Balrog fight. The most recent movie I watched was Ink, plenty of examples of both in there.

Besides, in the book they didn't even have a conflict, Gandalf just went to his cell, and rode off on the eagle before any real battle of wills began.

Absolute right. 8)
Author:  ChristsSoldier [ Sat May 14, 2011 7:09 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Possible plot-hole about Gandalf's staff
In the movies at least (I don't know about the books), Gandalf has four (yes 4) staffs. His first is the wooden one with all the branches that point upwards (and holds his pipe). He loses this to Saruman. His second staff, which is present when he enters Moria, is wooden with the branches pointed backward. This is the one with the glowing crystal, and is shattered when Gandalf breaks the bridge of Khazad Dum. It is presumed that Gandalf made this staff himself to replace the one lost to Saruman. The third staff is the Gandalf the White one. This is (in the movie) shattered by the Witch King. The fourth is the seemingly identical white staff that Gandalf has when he departs for Valinor from the Grey Havens at the very end of the trilogy. I have no idea where this staff came from (maybe, being secretly Santa Claus in disguise, Gandalf had his little hobbit-sized elves make it for him? :lol: :rofl: )


If you google image "Gandalf the Grey staff", you can see examples of the two brown wooden ones and their differences.
First staff:
http://www.revolutionsf.com/images/book ... andalf.jpg

Second staff:
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_y5vdYQ4Ceqc/T ... staff.jpeg

Gandalf equipment and more pictures:
http://www.council-of-elrond.com/castdb ... fgrey.html
Author:  Dorthonion [ Sat May 14, 2011 7:49 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Possible plot-hole about Gandalf's staff
I wondered a little about the staffs, but then it is a minor question within a much larger storyline so I would let it bother me. George Martin (A Song of Ice and Fire author) said he realised that he had managed a few slipups over the course of his books - one example was changing the gender of a famous horse. It happens, when you are creating a fictional history, unless you keep some database of everyone and everything and every event.
Author:  Sticky Fingersss [ Sun May 15, 2011 2:27 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Possible plot-hole about Gandalf's staff
Very good find Christsoldiers.
Author:  Beowulf03809 [ Tue Sep 27, 2011 6:49 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Possible plot-hole about Gandalf's staff
He just got he extended warranty coverage on the staff. Covers loss, breakage, and acts of Maiar (thankfully the noob working the help desk didn't know the difference between a Maiar and a Nazgul when he called in after the unfortunate WK incident).
Author:  Draugluin [ Sat Oct 22, 2011 11:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Possible plot-hole about Gandalf's staff
Beowulf03809 wrote:
He just got he extended warranty coverage on the staff. Covers loss, breakage, and acts of Maiar (thankfully the noob working the help desk didn't know the difference between a Maiar and a Nazgul when he called in after the unfortunate WK incident).

As funny as that is, that entire scene was the STUPIDEST scene in any movie ever filmed right up there with the Evenstar breaking, glad both were only in the EE. In the books, Gandalf 1. held off the WK and 4 other Nazgul at Weathertop, 2. SLEW A BALROG, 3. contested with the Eye while Frodo was on Amon Hen, 4. broke Saruman's staff with little to no strain AND 5. scared off the flying Nazgul to protect the retreat from Osgiliath.
Anyhow, back on track, whafrog is right, he would have been treated very well, not having his things taken, because 1. Saruman still wanted him as an ally and 2. it would have come to a fight of either will or flat out magic. Even though Saruman would have won that battle of will, he would have been severely injured/weakened and he would have had to kill Gandalf.
Author:  oliverc21 [ Fri May 18, 2012 10:51 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Possible plot-hole about Gandalf's staff
mAYBEYE HE MADE ANOTHER ONE?
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