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 Post subject: Re: About Khand...
PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2012 3:54 pm 
Craftsman
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 Post subject: Re: About Khand...
PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2012 4:15 pm 
Craftsman
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LOL OMG!!! I totally forgot about the poor Rohirrim!!!!

Theoden ONLY has armour and his options does NOT include the infamous hand weapon or ANY weapon for that matter!!! OR his son...or Hama...holy cow, almost all the Rohirrim Hero's do not have a listing for hand weapons...or options to buy hand weapons, some don't have options to buy any weapons. LoL well fraca? Explain. ...better yet, don't. You're done.

crazy...

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Last edited by ScarpeIron on Mon Feb 20, 2012 5:52 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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 Post subject: Re: About Khand...
PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2012 4:19 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: About Khand...
PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2012 6:29 pm 
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Holy ****...

Well, I had quite a bit of fun reading this, mainly due to the probably intended ignorance of fracas. Well done to the other for putting him in his place in a proper manner, by showing him where he was wrong, even if he refused to accept it, rather than just laughing him out of the place.

He probably thinks he's done his job, but now at least next time someone asks this question we can just point them here and show them the evidence. :)

@ Meatboy:
You would probably do well to start a new thread, as people can clearly put their thoughts down, this will probably get locked now anyway.

:wink:

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 Post subject: Re: About Khand...
PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2012 1:48 am 
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Highlordell wrote:
You would probably do well to start a new thread, as people can clearly put their thoughts down, this will probably get locked now anyway.

:wink:


Locked? Heavens, no! If anything, this thread should be stickied! :lol: It is a prime example of both rules clarification and of troll detection. Bravo! :yay: :rofl:

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 Post subject: Re: About Khand...
PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2012 2:25 am 
Kinsman
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Draugluin wrote:
ncea wrote:
fracas wrote:
thus a warrior with a bow and a sword can shoot the bow in the shooting phase and defend himself with the sword when charged in the Fight phase.


:? Did no one notice that? or are we just going to pretend he didnt say it?

Actually, you can get charged in the Fight Phase via Heroic Fights.


Lol yeah i forgot about them.. just remembered after i had gotten off the computer... but still..
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 Post subject: Re: About Khand...
PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2012 12:08 pm 
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Thanks whafrog for hunting out the troll, I had a feeling he was, but well done.

Leave this unlocked I think. We ll know what to do next time fracas or his kin show up.

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 Post subject: Re: About Khand...
PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2012 12:43 pm 
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For the record i am no accomplice to fracas.

But would would common sense prevail and a bezerker not be allowed to use said hand weapon? In the heat of battle the bezerker would have to drop his 2h weapon to "un-sheath" (assuming he has a secret sheath hidden on his body) his hand-weapon and thus would lose his 2h weapon for the remainder of the fight.

I think there are two ways to look at this:-

1. People at tournaments or otherwise wanting to win above all else would wish to sometimes utilise a hand-weapon of a bezerker.
2. Someone who would like to stick true to the books/real life would probably only use the 2h weapon as it makes sense.

What do you guys think? i am not disregarding your logical response to fracas but this seems justifiable to me.
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 Post subject: Re: About Khand...
PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2012 1:26 pm 
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The beserker could stab his weapon into the ground next to him for example and then use his hand weapon. The rules allow for players to choose, therefore the controlling player can decide whether they want to use the 2HW or not.

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 Post subject: Re: About Khand...
PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2012 2:16 pm 
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Yeah sorry but i am just a true blood kind of player. it is glaringly obvious that a bezerker will not think twice about forsaking his 2hw for a little stabby knife or something.

He is a raging nutter who just wants to maim and kill, and thus when i used to play isenguard that is exactly how i played it. i just kinda hoped everyone else was of similar ilk, i don't want to win at all costs, i want to immerse myself into this amazing world that Tolkein created.

Just my two cents worth...
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 Post subject: Re: About Khand...
PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2012 2:31 pm 
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Fenris wrote:
But would would common sense prevail and a bezerker not be allowed to use said hand weapon? In the heat of battle the bezerker would have to drop his 2h weapon to "un-sheath" (assuming he has a secret sheath hidden on his body) his hand-weapon and thus would lose his 2h weapon for the remainder of the fight.


A turn in SBG isn't that fine-grained in time, it's more abstract. If it were that fine-grained, there would be all kinds of other effects, like priority-by-model, or opportunity shots, etc.

Fenris wrote:
2. Someone who would like to stick true to the books/real life would probably only use the 2h weapon as it makes sense.


People who are more interested in theme than winning (such as myself :) ) do exactly this with berzerkers. I've seen other people mention doing it as well. But the option is still there for those of a more competitive nature.
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 Post subject: Re: About Khand...
PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2012 2:37 pm 
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Nice to know other's are out there who hold the same belief's....

I don't think bezerkers have the brain power to contemplate which weapon would best suit a situation...
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 Post subject: Re: About Khand...
PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2012 2:54 pm 
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Fenris wrote:
Nice to know other's are out there who hold the same belief's....

I don't think bezerkers have the brain power to contemplate which weapon would best suit a situation...


I have the old TTT rulebook (which first contained Berzerkers) and even there they were allowed to fight either one- or two-handedly. :wink:
Think of it this way: they can either a) swing the sword with one hand, making it quicker but less powerful, or b) focus their power and lay in two-handed, slower but more damaging. 8) Comparable to a b.asta.rd sword. That way he doesn't have to hide an additional hand weapon in inappropriate places. :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: About Khand...
PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2012 5:16 pm 
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I'm gonna finish this now, and noone argues: EVERY model carries a hand weapon, be it knife, claws, teeth or using the two handed weapon in just one hand for that fight!! As for the Beserkers, well, terrorists hide thing up their bottoms all the time. Can't Uruk Hai??

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 Post subject: Re: About Khand...
PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2012 5:18 pm 
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Zogash wrote:
Fenris wrote:
Nice to know other's are out there who hold the same belief's....

I don't think bezerkers have the brain power to contemplate which weapon would best suit a situation...


I have the old TTT rulebook (which first contained Berzerkers) and even there they were allowed to fight either one- or two-handedly. :wink:
Think of it this way: they can either a) swing the sword with one hand, making it quicker but less powerful, or b) focus their power and lay in two-handed, slower but more damaging. 8) Comparable to a b.asta.rd sword. That way he doesn't have to hide an additional hand weapon in inappropriate places. :lol:


That's what I was thinking.
Aragorns sword is also a [word deleted] sword (at least in my view), I think he used a shield in combination with it,
which he gained from Theoden. Or it was a helmet.. I'm not sure.

Arargorn does use his sword in combination with his elven knife, thus wielding it one handed.

If we look further to the 2 handed swords from the clansmen of Lamedon,
you can see a piece of leather above the gaurd.. And now I think that what I wanted to say was invalid.
That piece of leather is there for the use as a pike if I'm correct.

If we are to continue the history lessons, a trained 2 handed swordsmen could swing it one and 2 handed.
Also they received twice the pay. And 2 handed swords are mostly used to break pike formations.

But to get back on the thread. And to the original question by Meatboy, I use Khand in combination with the Easterlings.
The Easterlings, with their high defence usually take the first punches and when in close combat I send my Khandish warriors to attack the enemy their flank.
I have 12 warriors of Khand with 2 handed weapons and 6 with bow.
I have 1 chariot, but that will be expanded soon, I hope.
To continue on, I have no experience with the Khandish warriors alone,
but in combination with the Easterlings they can give quite a punch.


MeatBoy1994 wrote:
I'm gonna finish this now, and noone argues: EVERY model carries a hand weapon, be it knife, claws, teeth or using the two handed weapon in just one hand for that fight!! As for the Beserkers, well, terrorists hide thing up their bottoms all the time. Can't Uruk Hai??

Apologies, I didn't see that you posted that, but I hope I answered your question.
I don't know the rules for chariots and the warriors of Khand with the new rules, but with the old rules I really liked to use them :)
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 Post subject: Re: About Khand...
PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2012 1:17 am 
Kinsman
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amusing to quote Jobu

Jobu is a gaming buddy of mine and we disagree with this.
his quote from p42 of SBG:
Quote:
It clearly states that "all models carry a sword, axe, club or similar weapon in one hand" on page 42.


actually the full quote, rather than part of the sentence, states :
Quote:
All warriors carry a sword, axe, club or similar weapon in one hand-these are collectively called 'hand weapons' for that reason. All hand weapons are used more or less in the same way and how effective they are is more dependent upon a warrior's familiarity with his armament than any inherent differences between swords, axes, etc.


found under "Hand Weapon" section.
this could be read as defining what a hand weapon is, as it comes under the hand weapon section. a hand weapon is one carried in one hand, and these regardless of specific, whether sword, axe, club or similar are collectively called hand weapon.

"All warriors carry a sword, axe, club or similar weapon in one hand-these are collectively called 'hand weapons' for that reason. " is not the same sentence nor meaning as "All warriors carry a sword, axe, club or similar weapon in one hand."


but more importantly than this topic is the concept that
1. anyone who disagree with the consensus is a troll is a sad representation of the mentality of this board
2. that somehow consensus wins argument is amusing
3. that calling someone a troll is an argument winner is pathetic
talk about debate and logic fallacies

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 Post subject: Re: About Khand...
PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2012 1:56 am 
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Maermaethor wrote:
Though the warriors cannot carry both bows and 2-handed weapons at the same time, the chieftains are allowed to do this because of the Chieftain's Axe rule. "Models armed with two-handed weapons cannot carry pikes, spears, shields, bows, or crossbows as they need both hands to carry their weapons." ORB p. 43. "If the warrior also carries a shield or a spear then he cannot use his elven blade as a two-handed weapon, but models carrying bows can carry Elven blades and use them as two-handed weapons as normal." ORB p. 44. So a chieftain can use a bow and a 2-handed weapon, while a warrior can only use one or the other, which is why there is a distinction between a normal 2-handed axe and the chieftain's axe. This is the only advantage of an elven blade over a 2-handed weapon.

by giving all models a hand weapon, this will be the only advantage left for an elven blade.

Maermaethor wrote:
"Models armed with pikes cannot carry bows, crossbows, or shields as they need both hands to carry their weapons." ORB 43. This shows that no, a pike model cannot switch to a shield as they are not permitted to carry a shield at all, while Easterlings have an exception because of their Phalanx special rule.

we are not talking about pikes, bows, crossbows, or shields. it appears you either cannot read english, are an idiot, or a troll as you cannot read or stay on topic. if i appear rude, it is only commiserate with your own tone as quoted below.

Maermaethor wrote:
The FAQ answer clearly states that ALL (it seems that the word ALL is difficult for you to understand so I am emphasizing that it really says ALL) models count as carrying hand weapons UNLESS they are clearly stated as being UNARMED. In the Khandish warrior profile, can you see where it says that they are unarmed? No. It is because they are not unarmed. It says nothing about an exception for models that already have other wargear listed, nor does it say that it only applies to the elven warrior in question, it says ALL models. Therefore, a Khandish warrior can fight with just a hand weapon if he wishes to. You can keep arguing as much as you want, but you will still be wrong. If English is not your native language, I understand your confusion, but if it is, then you are either a complete idiot or a troll.

I understand English and Logic better than you. you take an answer to a question and generalize it beyond the question. this is a fallacy of reasoning and suggests a simple mind needing to generalize, rather than keep the specific to its own. the question and answer is a matched set and should not be separated in arguments. what was the question about? it was about being unarmed, the only emboldened word in the question. why might a model be unarmed? because "no equipment" listed in its base profile. so why would you extrapolate an answer to that question, with that circumstance as described, to models that have weapon(s) listed and in no way can be considered either without equipment or unarmed.

Maermaethor wrote:
Also, a shade might be useful, yes, as you still have the option of fighting 2-handed, but is 100 points worth it to just give your guys +1 to wound? Even if you had 50 warriors with 2-handed weapons, that would be 2 points per model, which is still a bit pricey, although in large games might be very useful.

Thanks!

Maermaethor.

you don't have to win every fight, just the key ones.

Re: Adam Troke
i did not make an argument to authority.
and i do not consider him an authority. i have given my reason why already.
read the rule book credits.
Adam Troke is no more an authority than Peter Jackson, no insult meant to either,
i consider Alessio Cavatore & Matthew Ward authorities for SBG rules interpretation, but the ultimate authority of SBG is the SBG rules as written.


Maermaethor, i responded to your post because you specifically asked for a response. but since you fail to be able to make an argument without resorting to name calling, i won't bother again.


laughable the need to name call and denigrate over toy soldiers.
some people really need a life.

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 Post subject: Re: About Khand...
PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2012 2:45 am 
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Actually, you are an idiot who thinks that he is right even when all of the proof is against him. You would make a great lawyer (which isn't a compliment).

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 Post subject: Re: About Khand...
PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2012 3:28 am 
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seriously fracas, ya need to stop or take this up with GW.

You've gone to 2 forums now and all the replies are all the same. "All warriors carry a sword, axe, club or similar weapon in one hand-these are collectively called 'hand weapons' for that reason." Is the sentence, has a start and a finish. Since you started this by breaking down the FAQ answer to a single sentence, so here is your answer as well in a single sentence.

You're not fooling anyone with how you are responding. The answer is the same on both forums. Yes, you are right you are not fitting into the consensus. Yes, you are right we are calling you a troll for the simple fact you are trolling for a ..continued.. discussion on a topic that everyone here and on the other forum has finished in hopes to getting a answer that favors you. Yes, we get it.

We are not telling you that you can not play as you interpret the rules your way; we are saying that you can play the game as YOU want outside Tournaments. Just be kind to your opponent and inform them you are playing by your House Rules. Yes, each one of us has answered your question the way each one of us has read the Original Rulebook and each one of us has come to the same conclusion that every model has a hand weapon. YES, we know you do not see it that way. So, go play the game with your toy soldiers your way and drop this argu...oh, sorry...discussion.

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 Post subject: Re: About Khand...
PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2012 3:30 am 
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Ok, I don't have any of the new books so I have a question about them.

Is any model in the new books described as "unarmed"? In the previous edition, there were very few; I think perhaps just Clansmen, Cirdan, Celeborn and Galadriel. If none of these have the "unarmed" keyword in their profile, then I could see where a newer player who hasn't gone through the whole debate when the current rulebook and accompanying FAQ came out would get confused.

Yes, Elven blades got nerfed a little with the new "everyone has a hand weapon" rule. Similarly, the older "bladed Orc bow" was entirely made obsolete.

No, it doesn't state that everyone has a hand weapon right in their wargear entry. I would assume this is laziness on the book writers' parts and the later FAQ was an attempt to compensate for it.

Why is it so difficult to believe that the rules were intended for every model to have a hand weapon unless it specifically says they don't? Yes, it's sloppy rule writing (how much extra effort does it take to put in that Eomer or Theoden carry a sword?) but it's just something we have to live with. It is a little disappointing to hear they haven't fixed it with the new profile books though.

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