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700 Point Tournament List- Advice Please
http://test.one-ring.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=37&t=20340		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  101st Vostroyan [ Tue Mar 08, 2011 11:30 pm ]
Post subject:  700 Point Tournament List- Advice Please
Rohan- Theoden's host

Grimbold

Rider of Rohan with Banner

15 Riders of Rohan
-11 equipped with bows-

13 Helmingas with shields

Warrior of Rohan with banner

8 Warriors of Rohan with shields/throwing spears

ALLIES-Fiefdoms

Captain of Dol Amroth

5 Knights of Dol Amroth on foot

6 Men at arms with pikes

6 Rangers of gondor with spears

2 Clansmen of Lamedon

Total: 697
Model Count: 49
Might: 4
Will: 2
Fate:2
17 Bows

What do you think about this list?
Author:  whafrog [ Tue Mar 08, 2011 11:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 700 Point Tournament List- Advice Please
2 banners might be overkill. If you drop the rider/banner you could get more warriors, and then all your riders could shoot. Without a hero to lead them you'll want to keep them away from combat until the right moment, so they might as well be shooting.
Author:  101st Vostroyan [ Tue Mar 08, 2011 11:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 700 Point Tournament List- Advice Please
The idea was that the mounted contingent could run off and benefit from a banner while all of the foot troops could benefit from a different banner
Author:  whafrog [ Wed Mar 09, 2011 12:14 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 700 Point Tournament List- Advice Please
No doubt. But not that many models, especially cavalry, can fit under a banner...most of your riders won't benefit. Since you don't have a cavalry hero: if you charge and lose priority, all your riders become very expensive single-attack models. Nothing deadens the heart like the sight of a line of cavalry caught in a counter-charge and swarmed by orcs :)

You've chosen to boost your infantry with Grimbold, so by necessity your cavalry have to play a more skirmishing role, giving them a banner won't change that.
Author:  BlackMist [ Wed Mar 09, 2011 12:29 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 700 Point Tournament List- Advice Please
1 Banner is often a waste of points. 2 are never useful enough to spend so many points on them, you're better off with 8 or so more models. You should also concentrate on using the full efficiency from Grimbold.

The best way to analyse a list I find is to look at the best enemies you might be facing. Check out these, completely standard and used at all GTs lists (well, most are more varied, this is just an archetype) and work out how you can beat them with what you created:

Mordor:

Shadow Lord on Fell Beast
Spider Queen
Orc Drummer
20 Morannons with Shield
20 Orcs with Spear
20 Trackers
And 35 points left-over...


Standard tournament Moria list:
Shadow Lord on Fell Beast
Spider Queen
Goblin Captain
24 Prowlers with Shield
24 Goblins with Spear
24 Goblins with Bow (12 spears)

700.

I don't know the level of the tournament you're entering, but you should be aiming to make a list that can beat these two on regular basis if you want to be successful at tourneys overall.

With that in mind the changes I would make:
- Drop banners
- Choose either Fiefdoms or Rohan to concentrante on
- If it's Fiefdoms, something like Gandalf, Imrahil, 15/15/15 KoDA, RoA, M@A works well as an archetype
- If it's Rohan, something like Saruman (or Legolas), Grimbold, Helmingas, about 5-6 Riders and allied Grey Company works best.
Author:  General Elessar [ Wed Mar 09, 2011 4:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 700 Point Tournament List- Advice Please
Do what BlackMist said, he's more qualified than any of us the give advice on competitive armies.:)
Author:  hero of gondor [ Wed Mar 09, 2011 5:03 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 700 Point Tournament List- Advice Please
No doubt that blackmistr is the best player here but try not to listen only to number 1 players, if blackmist becomes number 40 next year don't we have to listen to him anymore? No offense to general ellesar here or blackmist but everyone can give good advice if blackmist misses something. I don't want to argue about this it's just what I'm thinking is the danger of high ranked tournaments.

ON topic: The lists that blackmist entered are played very much played at last year's GT and very difficult to deal with with your forces. But a large problem of your army is the lack of strong hero's. Also 2 banners's is a little overkill sometimes a banner could be usefull but 2 banner's is a little too much. Try to drop the banner and some foot rohan because the foot models of rohan don't have a role in this list. Try to get Imrahil or forlong or another strong hero with 3 might. because overall for every 100 points you need one might point. This is not true for every list but it would be nice to have around 6/7 might in a list like this. I don't see the point in the warriors of rohan on foot. They are not getting supported by spears but in combat you should have spear with your stronger models like skoda. So if I were you I would drop the rohan foot soldiers and take fiefdoms foot troops instead. And make the group calvary slightly smaller because a group of 15 riders is difficult to move and get in combat. And at least have a hero to make that very important heroic moves.
Author:  101st Vostroyan [ Wed Mar 09, 2011 5:24 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 700 Point Tournament List- Advice Please
This list is using what I have. I started Lotr sbg only a few months ago and this is a local tournament at a gamestore.

I can buy more models, that is not a problem, but I would like to stick with a rohan theme because I have more of it. Plus Fiefdoms troops are extremely expensive because almost all of the come in blisters.

What else I have:

12 Archers or Rohan
Eomer on Horse
4 more clansmen of lamedon
16 more rangers of gondor

I will post up a new list later today.
Author:  whafrog [ Wed Mar 09, 2011 7:22 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 700 Point Tournament List- Advice Please
The tough part about Rohan is it's generally considered underpowered, but if that's what you have you have to make the best of it. Personally I like playing Rohan and I don't really care much about winning so much as making a good showing and learning something. But you might feel differently about tournaments.

I like BlackMist's suggestion of allying with GC instead of fiefdoms. You have 16 Rangers (they work for Gondor and Arnor), so all you need is 4 Rangers of the North (or Dunedain). That's two volley lines to annoy the shadowlord/spider queen. Give them some spears and you can support your S4 Helmingas. This puts the ranger side at ~250 points, leaving 450 for Rohan, which should let you load up on whatever WoR you have + as many RoR as you can pack in after taking Grimbold. Eomer is a better hero, but that would probably be too many points on heroes. If you picked up some RRG on foot it might help hold your shield wall.
Author:  BlackMist [ Wed Mar 09, 2011 8:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 700 Point Tournament List- Advice Please
General Elessar wrote:
Do what BlackMist said, he's more qualified than any of us the give advice on competitive armies.:)

Hero of Gondor wrote:
No doubt that blackmistr is the best player here but try not to listen only to number 1 players, if blackmist becomes number 40 next year don't we have to listen to him anymore? No offense to general ellesar here or blackmist but everyone can give good advice if blackmist misses something. I don't want to argue about this it's just what I'm thinking is the danger of high ranked tournaments

I agree with Hero of Gondor, that was a bit harsh, everybody's opinion counts. I just posted examples of top tournament armies used and what the meta looks like, so that the OP can get a look at what top tier tournaments use, so that he can get a better idea what to aim for.

Oh and Grey Company is almost always a good ally ;)
Author:  General Elessar [ Wed Mar 09, 2011 10:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 700 Point Tournament List- Advice Please
hero of gondor wrote:
No doubt that blackmistr is the best player here but try not to listen only to number 1 players, if blackmist becomes number 40 next year don't we have to listen to him anymore? No offense to general ellesar here or blackmist but everyone can give good advice if blackmist misses something. I don't want to argue about this it's just what I'm thinking is the danger of high ranked tournaments.


Of course. What I said was more of a joke than anything. :)
Author:  Sir Richard [ Mon Mar 14, 2011 1:30 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 700 Point Tournament List- Advice Please
A very experienced friend once told me that a banner is only useful when you have a high fight which rohan does not. I'm not sure about the fiefdoms, but I think it's the same. Therefore, I don't think even one banner is necessary here. You should fill the space left by the banners with rangers, imho.
Author:  General Elessar [ Mon Mar 14, 2011 7:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 700 Point Tournament List- Advice Please
Sir Richard wrote:
A very experienced friend once told me that a banner is only useful when you have a high fight which rohan does not.


Like Dwarves; they're the only army I take banners for.

It is important to note, however, that the cost of the banner is relative to the Fight value of the warrior.
Author:  101st Vostroyan [ Tue Mar 15, 2011 2:38 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 700 Point Tournament List- Advice Please
Hello again,
Thanks for all of the advice. I've finally had time to write a new list, but before I begin, I have a few questions.
-Would it be a good idea to put the rider with the banner with the infantry contingent to ride quickly to fights that need boosting?
-Is it a good idea to use helmingas in the front rank, rangers with spears behind, and men at arms behind them? I would get the benefits of higher strength, higher fight (4), and shooting attacks, or should I invest in axemen of lossarnach?
-Should I use Eomer or just a captain to lead the riders?
-Should I invest in buying Angbor and Forlong to use in this force? Has anyone made a Forlong on horse? I looked online but couldn't find one.

I am planning on dropping one of the banners.

Also, I would like to make it clear that while I do like winning, what I really like about the hobby is painting, modelling, and assembling a force with models or a background I like, which is why I play Rohan. I try to make competitive lists that also include models I like. With that being said, I would like to keep Rohan as the central theme of the army with fiefdoms to basically add more bows and add some higher fight and supporting troops. I realize that this basically makes my Rohan troops worthless.
Author:  BlackMist [ Tue Mar 15, 2011 10:14 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 700 Point Tournament List- Advice Please
101st Vostroyan wrote:
-Is it a good idea to use helmingas in the front rank, rangers with spears behind, and men at arms behind them? I would get the benefits of higher strength, higher fight (4), and shooting attacks, or should I invest in axemen of

You would still have F3 which sucks especially with 2 supports because you lose and get trapped more often. But Helmingas supported by Grey Company are good. You could get some foot Knights of DA to boost your fight value front while at the same time having some D6 for more survavibility.
Quote:
-Would it be a good idea to put the rider with the banner with the infantry contingent to ride quickly to fights that need boosting?

It's better not because of the speed but because the rider's base is bigger and that leads to a greater banner range.

Forlong on horse is quite good with his S5, but given that he's only Fight 4, then Eomer will be better (the cheaper version. The Knight of the Pelennor is way overpriced).
Author:  101st Vostroyan [ Tue Mar 15, 2011 3:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 700 Point Tournament List- Advice Please
Ya, I just read the rules again and saw that...

What do you think about riders of Eorl also?
Author:  spuds4ever [ Tue Mar 15, 2011 3:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 700 Point Tournament List- Advice Please
101st Vostroyan wrote:
Don't you usethe highest fight value you have for a fight? Fiefdoms troops have fight 4 and if they are supporting then wouldn't they give fight 4 to the Rohan troops


Nope, always use the warrior that's actually in base contact's fight value strength, and attacks (plus the extras for supporting). Supporting only gives the front model extra attacks effectively. If this didn't happen, you could "breed" the perfect warrior with the right support. For example if you took a khazad guard and gave him guard of the galadhrim court support. You'd get a F6 warrior with D7 and S4 for 11 points.
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