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Elves, how competitive are they?
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Author:  mastermanje [ Wed Jul 03, 2013 9:08 am ]
Post subject:  Elves, how competitive are they?
Back from the dead (again...), I finally started unboxing my LOTR armies again, and the first thing I saw were my Elves. Now, as I've almost never played a game without them in non-competitive games, I'd like to know how they do in the competitive ones. I've got some Rivendel stuff, aswell as some Galadhrims. But which ones do you think are better, the Rivendel elves or the Galadhrim ones? I'd personally think Galadhrims, as they're able to take some Sentinels in their own warbands, and they've got a combination of nice heroes and good units. Not to forget those amazing fleetfoot horses. So, which one of these 'factions' do you think is better?
Author:  SuicidalMarsbar [ Wed Jul 03, 2013 10:53 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Elves, how competitive are they?
Elves are by far the most competitive good army. Well I think a mix of Rivendell and Galadhrim is the way to go tbh. Especially when you have good ol' Gildor up in the crib upgrading all the wood elves to 8" move.
Author:  Bilbo [ Wed Jul 03, 2013 12:03 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Elves, how competitive are they?
Personally I prefer using purest armies from one faction or theme. Each faction comes with its own strengths and weaknesses, if you pick and choose armies from various lists it tends to mitigate an armies weaknesses which is part of the challenge and fun.

Rivendell Elves will be pretty much as good as you will ever get for an elite army, but with access to heavy armour and some serious magic and killing machine heroes.

Lothlorien are capable of some serious trickey, and the relative cheapness of the Galadrim means that you can field much more Fight 5 troops than most players are comfortable going up against. Rumil is fantastic for winning fights againts monsters and heroes. Make sure that he is backed up by a few pikemen, and suddenly he's lethal!
Author:  mastermanje [ Wed Jul 03, 2013 12:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Elves, how competitive are they?
Well, I'll probably model one of the two so they look like the better/less armored versions from the same faction, so Rivendel elves'd become some kind of royal guards or shock troopers in a Lothlorien based list. Now the thing that I was wondering about is whether or not elves realy rely on hit and run, kiting since the Hobbit rules. Or have they become more of a melee army, charging towards the enemy rather then baiting them into traps and keeping distance?
Author:  Bilbo [ Wed Jul 03, 2013 1:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Elves, how competitive are they?
With Rivendell they ca dole out a lot of pain before the enemy reach a heavily armoured, spear supported wall. The Rivendell Knights are excellent hit and run troops,they benefit from the woodland creature and expert rider rules, so that they can harry the enemy with bow fire, but will really pack a punch with lances in in a way that Galadrim Knights cant match. Having a point higher defence is pretty use full as well. I suspect that we will have miniatures for the Rivendell Guards with pikes that were seen in the hobbit movie, but don't hold your breath.
Author:  mastermanje [ Wed Jul 03, 2013 4:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Elves, how competitive are they?
Bilbo wrote:
With Rivendell they ca dole out a lot of pain before the enemy reach a heavily armoured, spear supported wall. The Rivendell Knights are excellent hit and run troops,they benefit from the woodland creature and expert rider rules, so that they can harry the enemy with bow fire, but will really pack a punch with lances in in a way that Galadrim Knights cant match. Having a point higher defence is pretty use full as well. I suspect that we will have miniatures for the Rivendell Guards with pikes that were seen in the hobbit movie, but don't hold your breath.

Okay, so that means a combination of Wood Elves, Rivendel Knights and Galadhrim warriors'd be a pretty solid hit 'n run force? What do you think of enchanted cloaks? Are they worth their points on Woode Elves in a hit and run army?
Author:  whafrog [ Wed Jul 03, 2013 4:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Elves, how competitive are they?
mastermanje wrote:
What do you think of enchanted cloaks? Are they worth their points on Woode Elves in a hit and run army?


Almost never. The only time might be in a custom scenario designed to take it into account, or on a *very* foresty board. Cloaks cut your numbers by 50%, and you have to stay in terrain and away from combat or they're wasted. The 6" charge rule is kind of pointless because most models only move 6", so they'll be inside the zone if they were going to charge anyway.

I haven't had a chance to build or try my Rivendell Knights yet. They look awesome, but with the required leadership I can't see them being used for general armies. So far my most successful combo is Galadhrim with a mix of shields, WE spears and bows, and some Guards. Rivendell only brings D6 to the table and no pikes. Since so many enemies are S4, that D6 is almost a complete waste. Lastly, Galadhrim have cheap effective heroes, whereas Rivendell only has Gildor in the same point cost range. It's hard to justify Glorfindel when Rumil and 2 pikes are cheaper and more deadly.
Author:  Denizen [ Wed Jul 03, 2013 5:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Elves, how competitive are they?
SuicidalMarsbar wrote:
Elves are by far the most competitive good army.

Not too sure about that. If you mean excluding allie-based armies than Men and Dwarfs are far better imo.
Elves have decent fight and archery but they lack a real punch.
Too much F5 goes to waste, the courage they pay for is rarely of any use and their heroes are overal too expensive.
The best you could get out of them is 1/3 Galadhrim with Shields, 1/3 Woodelves with Spears, 1/3 Galadhrim with Elf bows combined with some pikes and Sentinels.
Rumil is their only answer against Monsters.
Goblins are the most used Evil army these days and they would just walk over them.
Author:  mastermanje [ Wed Jul 03, 2013 5:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Elves, how competitive are they?
Denizen wrote:
SuicidalMarsbar wrote:
Elves are by far the most competitive good army.

Not too sure about that. If you mean excluding allie-based armies than Men and Dwarfs are far better imo.
Elves have decent fight and archery but they lack a real punch.
Too much F5 goes to waste, the courage they pay for is rarely of any use and their heroes are overal too expensive.
The best you could get out of them is 1/3 Galadhrim with Shields, 1/3 Woodelves with Spears, 1/3 Galadhrim with Elf bows combined with some pikes and Sentinels.
Rumil is their only answer against Monsters.
Goblins are the most used Evil army these days and they would just walk over them.

Well I'm also very fond of dwarves, so how do they do these days? Also, what'd you think of an army of elves or dwarves supported by Eagles? Would that work?
Author:  Denizen [ Wed Jul 03, 2013 5:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Elves, how competitive are they?
mastermanje wrote:
Denizen wrote:
SuicidalMarsbar wrote:
Elves are by far the most competitive good army.

Not too sure about that. If you mean excluding allie-based armies than Men and Dwarfs are far better imo.
Elves have decent fight and archery but they lack a real punch.
(...)
Goblins are the most used Evil army these days and they would just walk over them.

Well I'm also very fond of dwarves, so how do they do these days? Also, what'd you think of an army of elves or dwarves supported by Eagles? Would that work?

Since they have spear support, they do very well. They have that thing that Elves really lack: punch (=Khazad-Guard/Iron Guard).
Hmm it would be very small. Best would be to sqeeze some Woses in for numbers. You'll need Ghan as a cheap Eagle-leader anyway.
Author:  mastermanje [ Wed Jul 03, 2013 5:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Elves, how competitive are they?
Denizen wrote:
Since they have spear support, they do very well. They have that thing that Elves really lack: punch (=Khazad-Guard/Iron Guard).
Hmm it would be very small. Best would be to sqeeze some Woses in for numbers. You'll need Ghan as a cheap Eagle-leader anyway.

Woses... how the **** am I going to get that explained to my inner fluff-nerd?! And are they any good?! Okay, they've got blowpipes, but they die way too fast, the blowpipes lack range and strenght, cetainly with the new rules, and they still cost 7 points?! The only way to use them'd be giving them all axes and hope you're up against orcs. Or am I wrong? Also, wouldn't it be nice to have some cheap cavalrymen to both support the dwarves and bring them forwards, by letting them take place on the passenger seat?
Author:  SouthernDunedain [ Wed Jul 03, 2013 7:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Elves, how competitive are they?
I'll jump in here and say woses are amazing. Don't forget they count as having elf cloaks so your spears are pretty safe.
Author:  Denizen [ Wed Jul 03, 2013 8:04 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Elves, how competitive are they?
They have elven cloaks, +1 on the To Wound table when facing (EDIT: certain creatures) (and with the new rules this also works when they give spear support!), woodland creature and they cost only (EDIT: the same as a naked elf) ;)
Don't bother about the blowpipes, they need to be stationary for that, which is rarely a case.
Put them behind D7 Khazad-Guards or Dwarf Warriors with shield and you have an awesome battleline :)

-----------
Note: don't put individual point costs in posts. You're also pushing it with the amount of detailed info you're giving.
Author:  Bilbo [ Thu Jul 04, 2013 9:33 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Elves, how competitive are they?
Until the Heroe and warband rules came out with the LOTR source books, I always used to see at least one Woses army at the tournaments. Unfortunately I have never played against one, which is a pity as they looked fun. Its a shame that there are no rules for a generic Woses heroe as an all Woses army is unfieldable now. I suppose that with house rules and a number of converted Ghan Buri Ghans its probably worth a go.
Author:  SouthernDunedain [ Thu Jul 04, 2013 10:00 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Elves, how competitive are they?
Doesn't stop my mate haha. He runs 60 woses led by treebeard, gwaihir, bilbo, bandorbras and ghan buri ghan. It's tough to crack, mainly because of treebeard.
Author:  mastermanje [ Thu Jul 04, 2013 10:15 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Elves, how competitive are they?
SouthernDunedain wrote:
Doesn't stop my mate haha. He runs 60 woses led by treebeard, gwaihir, bilbo, bandorbras and ghan buri ghan. It's tough to crack, mainly because of treebeard.

Seems solid.

Well I forgot to read the special rules, so they're starting to make more and more sense :-D . But how am I going to explain Woses in a Dwarf/Elf army?!
Author:  Bilbo [ Thu Jul 04, 2013 10:54 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Elves, how competitive are they?
They all hate orks!

I have the box set with Ghan and 9 woses, which remains unopened at present, and I suspect will remain so until after I have painted my Hobbit back log!
Author:  SuicidalMarsbar [ Thu Jul 04, 2013 10:58 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Elves, how competitive are they?
People rarely question Harad allying with Moria, or Isengard with Easterlings, it is only ever good armies that are scrutinized, how sad :(

On a more serious note, Woses could, in theory, represent a group of random wildmen living in the forests around dwarven holds, and have teamed up.

Alternatively this could be a fourth age army where the woses are known allies of the free peoples, and thus are willing to work alongside their fellow man/elf/dwarf.
Author:  Damian [ Thu Jul 04, 2013 11:57 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Elves, how competitive are they?
Quote:
60 woses led by treebeard, gwaihir, bilbo, bandorbras and ghan buri ghan.

Converting up a Wose on a Stag to represent Bandobras and a Wose Shamen for Bilbo would be cool. What would be a more appropriate magical power for an elusive wose than invisibility. The downsides of The Ring's rules can be explained by the effects of the plants and herbs he has to eat to get his invisibility mojo working.
Author:  -Bolg- [ Thu Jul 04, 2013 12:16 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Elves, how competitive are they?
Bilbo wrote:
They all hate orks!

I have the box set with Ghan and 9 woses, which remains unopened at present, and I suspect will remain so until after I have painted my Hobbit back log!


They live in the wouds, elves live in the wouds :D.
Dwarves definitly don't live in the Woods :D:D:D.

-bolg-
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