I thought heads, arms and legs counted as visible, but weapons and tails did not. Also, I think if the model is mounted higher, and that makes him more visible, that's the price you pay for modelling him that way
But I could be wrong.
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| Bolt Thrower, forests and line of sight in SBG http://test.one-ring.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=46&t=21913 |
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| Author: | Tharkan [ Tue Nov 01, 2011 12:24 am ] |
| Post subject: | Bolt Thrower, forests and line of sight in SBG |
Hi there everyone! I've been playing some days with a friends after a long time, so we were trying to undust our knowledge about the game. Then we realized about the way some things could be handled: 1) Avenger Bolt thrower has direct shoot so it doesn't work as a catapult in the way it shoots. But we don't know if we have to trace a line in each possible target (an straight one) in order to know if there are obstacles that can be hit on each shoot (1-3 hit the obstacle, 4+ continue it's path) (and if the bolt thrower can shoot if there is a Light miniature in the trajectory). 2) Do you use forests with a base in your games? How do you handle them? I know they are difficult terrain so everybody moves half it's movement (except the elves ofc), but I dont know if we have to use the same line of sight and trajectory rules or for example, if the people are shooting from one of the forest's edge, they have coverage. 3) How much can a miniature see? I mean, if there is a block of warriors with more than two rows of people, can you see the third one? And, for example, if you are behind a round hill, and the enemy is behind the other side so you can onle see their heads, can you shoot them with the hill as obstacle? And if there is cavalry behind them, and you see the whole warrior mounted on it, you have to consider the warriors in front of them (that are not visible for the archers) as obstacles in the trajectory or you have to consider the hill? I know some of the questions are a bit particular, but I'll thank you if you can explain me any of them in detail so I can understand them. Thank you very much!! |
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| Author: | whafrog [ Tue Nov 01, 2011 3:08 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Bolt Thrower, forests and line of sight in SBG |
It's really simple: everything is "whatever you see". If your terrain is on a base, consider it a rise in the ground. If the terrain doesn't have any bushes, then it's clear ground (though maybe rough underfoot). If you want to see what the model sees, get down to the model's eye level. And if you ever disagree with someone about it, roll a d6 to see whose interpretation wins and carry on. If you try to get more specific you'll end up with a zillion special rules that won't work half as well. |
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| Author: | Beowulf03809 [ Tue Nov 01, 2011 2:17 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Bolt Thrower, forests and line of sight in SBG |
"Common Sense" for line of sight in SBG is the best guide. As whafrog said it is pretty clear when you just look from the model's perspective. If an arm, head or leg is the only thing visible ignore it, but if you can see some "body" then you can see the target. If there is anything ( tree, rock, another model, etc. ) partly between the shooter and the target then you have an "in the way" roll required. Sometimes getting started you may have very few trees to make terrain so you use a template (cut out green cloth patterns, for example) and don't have anything to really be "in the way". In such cases you can always just decide how dense the woods are and assign a roll to see if there is a possible in-the-way issue. Light woods would be a 1-2, medium woods would be 1-4, and heavy woods always need a roll, is one method we've used. But all this should be discussed in advance because SBG really does assume "true" line of sight. As you're considering if you can see a target, take into account the base it's on. Often players like to model a major Hero or even their captains on special bases to help them look better and stand out on the field. In many cases these will raise the model a little higher than those around them and may create a situation where you can see the hero in cases where you really shouldn't. Again, talk about this in advance if you're worried your beautiful model of Boromir standing on top of a ruined wall getting pelted by arrows for the whole game. |
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| Author: | whafrog [ Tue Nov 01, 2011 4:53 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Bolt Thrower, forests and line of sight in SBG |
I thought heads, arms and legs counted as visible, but weapons and tails did not. Also, I think if the model is mounted higher, and that makes him more visible, that's the price you pay for modelling him that way But I could be wrong. |
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| Author: | Beowulf03809 [ Tue Nov 01, 2011 5:54 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Bolt Thrower, forests and line of sight in SBG |
I'll check the rules on "heads", but I thought the SBG rules did call out arms and legs as not counting if they are the only thing you can see. The "price you pay" is why I suggested discussing it in advance. Locally we wouldn't hold it against someone for modeling their heroes a with some creativity (standing on rocks is always common, for example). If only the extra elevation contributes to the model being seen we wouldn't penalize for that. But that's just our local policy because we want to encourage, not penalize, creativity in the appearance of the army. It can help the major Heroes look extra good and can help generic Captains stand out better in a mass of Goblins, for example. But if your local group or tournament opponent decides it's the price you pay for WYSIWYG on basing too then you really are stuck with it. |
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| Author: | Beowulf03809 [ Tue Nov 01, 2011 6:07 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Bolt Thrower, forests and line of sight in SBG |
Looks like tails are the only "body" part that is excluded in typical LoS rules. So head/arm/leg/torso counts. Cloths, weapons and tails (if applicable) would not. |
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| Author: | Tharkan [ Tue Nov 01, 2011 10:40 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Bolt Thrower, forests and line of sight in SBG |
Hi there, Thank you for your responses. I think if there is a cavalry model behind rows of people, they are higher than the others so there is a probability to shoot them. However, as I explain before, in the hill scenary I can only see the hill and the cavalry (and one head of one of the soldiers) so I would make the hill and the soldiers as obstacles (If the hill wasn't there I should throw a dice for each row of people in front of the cavalry target). In the case of the Bolt thrower, a Light army can't attack if there is a possibility of injuring another ally so the machine can't shoot. Finally, the forest problem it's difficult to solve: On the one hand, forests should be great allies for elven cloaks, but taking into account the rules, you can only benefit them if you are parcially hidden by a tree physically in the forest. We'll discuss about it each new game and we'll see. Anyway, thank you very much for your helping hand! 
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| Author: | whafrog [ Tue Nov 01, 2011 11:47 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Bolt Thrower, forests and line of sight in SBG |
Beowulf03809 wrote: Locally we wouldn't hold it against someone for modeling their heroes a with some creativity (standing on rocks is always common, for example). If only the extra elevation contributes to the model being seen we wouldn't penalize for that. But that's just our local policy because we want to encourage, not penalize, creativity in the appearance of the army. It can help the major Heroes look extra good and can help generic Captains stand out better in a mass of Goblins, for example. But if your local group or tournament opponent decides it's the price you pay for WYSIWYG on basing too then you really are stuck with it. Good point, I like to be flexible in my application of the rules, but also like simplicity. If it's just a hero or two, it's probably not a problem. |
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| Author: | Beowulf03809 [ Wed Nov 02, 2011 2:54 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Bolt Thrower, forests and line of sight in SBG |
I guess you should be sure it works both ways though. If you say your model can see something he wouldn't be able to if he was based flat then you had better be ready to have that same "advantage" used against you. |
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