we've been using a house rule for LOS in our last couple of games. it was wroking really nice though we're still playing limited size wotr games and it seems working fine for such games. The idea is to assign height level for each formation type as follows.

LOS house rule:

Height Lvl..............type
-------------------------------

0..........................broodling and such crawling creatures
2..........................short inf (hobbits/dwarves/Boblins)
3..........................inf (human/elf/Orc/Uruk), giant spider
4..........................cav (even hobbits cavelry), Shelob
5..........................Monsters (real monsters, not single models)
6..........................Balrog, Mumak and such huge non flying creatures
7..........................Flying (by nature)
4+*......................Elevated/Defensible terrain


In the way formation totally blocks LOS to same level or lower formation behind it. If more than one formation are in the way take the highest level of them. Taller formations can see and be seen over shorter formarions.

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OFTENTIME,THE SHADOWS SERVE NOT ONLY TO CONCEAL THOSE WHO WISH TO DO EVIL,BUT ALSO PROTECT THOSE WHO SEEK TO DO GOOD

Thank you. Somebody finally sees the rules as they are written. The box in fact specifically states that flyer ignores other formations 'just as they can when they move' - it does not say that they ignore the line of sight rules, only ignore the movement rules.

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Coordinator of the Great British Hobbit League

@Hashut : oopsie, sorry about that ! No biggie then, anyway we're on the same mind here

@Blackmist : I sincerely don't know what you're talking about. A lot of people who posted agree that it is the way it is supposed to work. I think we can say the intention is quite clear. But the rule as written is not (not the LOS one, the grey outbox). And what you said is not what the outbox is saying. That's all.

Sorry, have you actually read the grey box? Here: "Flying monsters can ignore other formations and terrain features when they charge, just as they can when they move". Hashut's Blessing just proved that to actually declare a charge you must see your opponent in the first place, only after declaring you are allowed to move and ignore other formations, and the LoS rules clearly state that the line is drawn from base to base. There is no mention anywhere that any model other than a Mumak counts as being able to see over other formations, unless it is on an elevated position.

I never said LoS rules were unclear. Maybe the intentions were as you say, maybe not, that's a question of opinion and it's irrelevant to what the rules actually say (it's the same with Outriders/Gamling in LotR - the intention was probably to not let them gain free Might, but the rules allow it, so we just live with it) but that's not the point, the point is what the rule actually is saying, and that I already said many times.

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Coordinator of the Great British Hobbit League

I agree that the combo of the rules does seem pretty clear when viewed in steps and not trying to assume what is meant.

As BlackMist posted, you first have to be able to legally declare a charge, and that requires using the LoS rules. If you can charge, then the box-out exception is taken into account, allowing you to ignore blah, blah, blah. Playing this way may not seem "right" for a Flying Monster, but it does keep things fair on both sides since the FM can't charge without LoS and likewise probably can't be targeted because if they can't see (with 360 degree) most likely they can't be seen either.

If someone doesn't like it and wants to play without regard of the LoS restrictions then, as I mentioned earlier, the most fair way would to be sure it's reciprocal. If an FM can see "over" other models when determining who to charge then other models can see over those same obstructions to the FM.

Personally I think that the FM player will quickly realize that the rules, as written, are helping them out. Generally FMs are going to be an arrow magnet. If I have twelve Companies of Wood Elves spread out over a few Formations, and I can see your Winged Nazgul right over the tops of all those heavy armored Morannon Orc and Trolls, I can assure you that you're going to have a helluva headache watching lots and lots of dice cast against that H2K table. I think you'd be much happier being able to hide him behind those grunts until he's close enough to act as you want. So to be honest with you I'd be more inclined to think players trying to KILL the FMs would want to see the LoS restrictions lifted and those using FMs would like to keep them hidden (even if it's pretty stupid to see a Fell Best crawling on its belly behind a horde of Orc).

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http://TacticsInMiniature.com

Yaum: Not a problem. I apologise if my previous post seemed a bit harsh, I just re-read it and hadn't realised the tone of some of it. I hope there are no hard feelings.

In general: As has been said, when viewed step-by-step, it becomes clear, but if looked at individually, the rule certainly isn't as clear as it could've/maybe should've been. Also, again, as said, if a house rule is implemented to allow flying monsters to see over formations, then formations should be able to see flying monsters over other formations too.

I like MuslimRohirrim's method as it allows for more sensical playing, but it IS a house rule Another method is that any model that is twice the height of a model in their line of sight can see over them: e.g. Knights of Minas Tirith would be able to see over Khazad Guard.

To be honest, I'm contnet to use the the step-by-step ruling for clarification

Agreed.

as for movements and charge, I find allowing Flying monsters to jump over formations very interesting. it gives me the feeling of the knight moves in chess, it really adds to strategy aspect of the game. you just have to anticipate it just like any other tactical move in the game.

last night we used the LoS special rule in a game as usual and we find adding In The Way part to it very useful and balances the game more. I think I'll post it in the house rules section of the forum. please check and let me know what you think.

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OFTENTIME,THE SHADOWS SERVE NOT ONLY TO CONCEAL THOSE WHO WISH TO DO EVIL,BUT ALSO PROTECT THOSE WHO SEEK TO DO GOOD

Folks,
I'm coming in to this discussion a little late, and I am not a terribly experienced player either, so perhaps take what I say with a pinch of salt...

Concerning the rules in WOTR, they do, to my mind, draw a little from the rules of GW's other fantasy smaller scale game;WARMASTER.

I played Warmaster for many years, and there were similar "issues", with flyers then too.
It basically was clarified by the the statement that, you must think of flyers as moving in "hops" from one ground location to another. DONT think of them as staying aloft all the time... Hence their LOS rules are ground based. So if for example your dragon is on the ground behind a friendly unit of orcs, and in front of the orcs are some humans, the dragon cant see the humans to charge them...

However, if instead that dragon was actually on a hill behind the orcs and can now see down over the orcs to the humans, then it now has LOS and its flying ability allows it to charge over the orcs and hit the humans.

I think you also perhaps have to get away from the "literal" aspect of the SBG game, and understand the WOTR is somewhat more abstracted, in terms of formations, LOS and movements etc etc.
In WOTR, I would suggest ignoring the height of models on the company bases, or even trolls and other monsters. Just think of everything as being as tall as the movement tray itself. (Perhaps the Mumak exempted by its own special rule?). Then you can see how the LOS rules work (as everything is the same height).

I hope this has perhaps helped clarify the issue a little?

Thats my take on it anyway.

Regards
Scott

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www.scottswargaming.blogspot.com

The flying monster rule shoots both ways, whilst you can't be shot at behind a formation, you can't charge. The rule is basically so one can rear attack and flank attack with ease. This may not be logical but rules aren't always. Just live with it, it's not going to have such an impact on the game anyway.

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"War does not determine who is right, only who is left."
- Bertrand Russel