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 Post subject: Re: WotR - Rohan Royal Standard Question
PostPosted: Thu May 12, 2011 7:57 am 
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"Unless I'm mistaken, Army Banners count as normal banners as well as giving the benefit detailed on page 60. Therefore, it's not like an 85pt value PLUS the free Might."

True. But the downside is one heroic duel.. and bye bye army banner... which wouldn't happen for a 'normal' banner acting as an army banner. It has a vulnerability a normal banner does not.

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 Post subject: Re: WotR - Rohan Royal Standard Question
PostPosted: Thu May 12, 2011 8:55 am 
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Additionally, in answer to "so you think you can get all that for just 50 points?" erm, frankly, yes. You have to buy that formation already, you are limited in choice (unless you of course buy a standard banner and upgrade it with a fortune) to having it in that formation, and it has the vulnerability to being lost in a heroic duel (Hama's bodyguard rule notwithstanding).

Unfortunately an argument based on relative points value isn't conclusive in itself in WotR. For example If I take a Misty Mountains army and want some magic.. I can for 100 points take a Might 1 Mastery 1 Goblin Shaman... Or Also for 100 take Druzhag at Might 3 Mastery 2 plus as an epic as well as having epic cowardice can remove to safety easily. So unless I have fallen over and banged my head and am not thinking straight its Druzhag every time.

Ultimately though, banner, army banner and 50% chance to get back a might point... I still say yes, it is rather why that legendary formation exists. It would be good if GW address this along with all the other points foibles of course. For the record I am Predominately an Isengard player so I would be facing this banner rather than using it

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 Post subject: Re: WotR - Rohan Royal Standard Question
PostPosted: Thu May 12, 2011 1:56 pm 
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The only explicit way in the rules to get the Army Banner benefits are to take a normal banner and buy a 50point Fortune, so it is fair to say than an Army Banner is an 85 point value.

Gothmog only costs 110 points and counts as an Army Banner, is Master of Battle and Overlord, has a two very effective Epic actions and a great stat line.

Though Common Sense should win the day, two things that really should not be used in deciding this are what models are available and comparisons to other Formations / Models. There are so many examples of over-powered / under-priced options in WotR right now (most of them evil) that I think Rohan (and a couple other Good armies) could use a little extra to help compensate. This Formation, maxed out with the Royal Standard upgrade and adding Theoden to lead them comes to about 485 points I believe. Even if you counted the Royal Standard upgrade to include all options (Banner + Army Banner + Royal Standard special rule), the Formation would still be pretty useless charging into anything Mordor that includes a couple key Nazgul and/or certain extra-ugly Epic Orc and some cheap models. Heck, I think you can get Gothmog, Khamul, one more Nazgul of your preference and 5-6 Companies of heavily armored Morannon Orcs for about that price, and I dare say in WotR rules the Kings Guard are probably NOT going to win that fight most of the time. And the Royal Knights will have costed a heck of a lot more money to play since they are 100% metal. So for equal points, and probably double or more dollars invested, you will have a Formation that can be effective but easily defeated by underpriced Mordor options.

Model wise, there are already a lot of profiles that do not have a model representing them (they don't even offer a mounted Hama at this time but he is REQUIRED for this Formation), so just because a model Gamling (on foot) without the banner exists from SBG days is not really a justification to say the banner is not automatically included with him.

And as mentioned Gamling can be dueled, and probably will be, and this is a weakness that no other Banner / Army Banner in the game has.

Finally, if this does NOT count as a normal banner at least, then the Kings Guard has no way of getting a banner (it's not an upgrade option) and therefore an Army Banner via the Fortune, and that's just plain stupid design.

Locally we will probably be playing this as the Kings Guard uses Gamling with a Banner and the normal Banner rules at all times. If you get the Royal Standard upgrade then it also counts as an Army Banner. Though I'm going to have fun playing this and in our local games (where you will probably never see the 2 Nazgul + Gothmog combo) I think it will be an effective Formation as it should be. But I doubt it would ever show up in competitive tournament-level play.

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 Post subject: Re: WotR - Rohan Royal Standard Question
PostPosted: Thu May 12, 2011 4:24 pm 
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The mention of the resplendence of riding beneath the Royal Standard of Rohan and marching beneath Halbarad's banner are in flavour text, not rules text. As said, I would allow it to be played as an Army Banner, but the rules don't actually say it is anywhere.

Also, it amuses me when people use the financial cost of models when referencing the points cost in-game. Seems odd, but people do it a lot :D
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 Post subject: Re: WotR - Rohan Royal Standard Question
PostPosted: Thu May 12, 2011 5:49 pm 
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Hashut's Blessing wrote:
Also, it amuses me when people use the financial cost of models when referencing the points cost in-game. Seems odd, but people do it a lot :D


Well...I'm on a pretty tight hobby budget now days. I imagine others here are as well. Though I may pick up individual things now and then, for me $50 in models is NOT something I take lightly or do more than a couple times per year any more. :sad: So when it's time for me to spend the money I want to spend it on models that (1) look good, (2) matche the theme of the army I am building and (3) are effective in the game. I can get two Companies of Militia and one Company of Bowmen ( 24 models ) for the price of ONE Company of Royal Knights ( 2 models ). If I was starting from scratch, the mandatory Heroes and RRG to make a full 6 Company formation of Royal Knights is going to cost about $180. I can get two Epic Heroes and about 15 Companies of plastic Infantry for that price. Or, as mentioned, 2 Nazgul, Gothmog, 2 boxes of Morannon Orc (full legal Formation size), pizza and beer and still have enough money left over for a Command Blister. :roll:

So yes, I expect the "opportunity cost" of a Formation of Royal Knights to be justifiable. The first two factors (look good and match the theme of the army I want to build) are right on target, but if they play like sick pigs on the table then there's at least a 1/3 loss for me.

If GW (or any company) expects to charge a premium for metal models and specific Heroes they need to make them functional within the scope of the game at a level that justifies the investment by the player or else why should we do it? :roll:

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 Post subject: Re: WotR - Rohan Royal Standard Question
PostPosted: Thu May 12, 2011 7:46 pm 
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Beowulf03809 wrote:
If GW (or any company) expects to charge a premium for metal models and specific Heroes they need to make them functional within the scope of the game at a level that justifies the investment by the player or else why should we do it? :roll:


Spot on. Why else do you suppose the Khandish haven't sold particularly well?

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 Post subject: Re: WotR - Rohan Royal Standard Question
PostPosted: Thu May 12, 2011 10:58 pm 
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Hashut's Blessing wrote:
The mention of the resplendence of riding beneath the Royal Standard of Rohan and marching beneath Halbarad's banner are in flavour text, not rules text. As said, I would allow it to be played as an Army Banner, but the rules don't actually say it is anywhere.


Well. As it is in the first paragraph of the rule about Army Banners, it's not quite pure flavour text, and still identifies those two banners as examples of army banners. I'll grant it doesnt say "the following are to be treated always as army banners"

However, we do get into a circular argument here looking at the rules... as we get to the situation that the RAW mean that those two banners *never* can be Army Banners, despite being listed as examples of such on page 60.

How????? I'll explain.
If the standard is identified as not being effectively a banner as the stat block doesnt mention it....
... And then the stat block also doesn't give a price cost to give that formation a banner.
Therefore that formation simply doesnt have a banner, unless The Royal Standard is made an Army Banner by the Fortune. (as already pointed out in this thread)

BUT p89 says under Banner of the Free Peoples "Choose one formation in your army that has a Banner Bearer. That Banner is now an army banner for the remainder of the game"

So if the Royal Standard isn't a banner, it can't be upgraded to be an Army Banner, and the Royal Standard can never be the Army Banner. Which as I mentioned above is clearly at odds with the description of it acting like such in the rules text.

Alright, all that is a bit specious :). Now,the rules make a deal out of units using equipment actually present on the model. At least by adding details like "the formation is armed with hand weapons regardless of the actual weapons on the model" a number of times. So having a Gamling with the banner, and saying, "actually that banner looking thing there.. well this game i havent spent the extra points so its not an army banner, or even a banner... but next game it will be. "just sounds plain daft

So, everyone agrees common sense should rule, and actually the RAW technically preclude the Royal Standard being an Army banner... the question is rather what is wrong?
1. GW forgot to add banner bearer to the stat block and should be added for 35 points? then for +50 it can be turned into an Army Banner? (this is the carziest as Gamling already has that standard for +50)
2. The Standard should be treated as a regular banner for the Formation in addition to its special rule, for the +50 points. It can then be upgraded with that Fortune etc etc. to army Banner.
3. The standard is in fact an Army Banner for Rohan with the particular strengths (and weaknesses) already discussed previously.

I guess most would favour (2). But I still think (3) is reasonable as Rohan don't have many 'special's' like magic or artillery.

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 Post subject: Re: WotR - Rohan Royal Standard Question
PostPosted: Fri May 13, 2011 2:41 am 
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Keep in mind that the "first paragraph of the rule" for overlord specifically mentions Sauron in a similar fashion to the army banner question, and Sauron doesn't have overlord.
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 Post subject: Re: WotR - Rohan Royal Standard Question
PostPosted: Fri May 13, 2011 8:12 am 
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ForgottenLore wrote:
Keep in mind that the "first paragraph of the rule" for overlord specifically mentions Sauron in a similar fashion to the army banner question, and Sauron doesn't have overlord.


Yes... so we have examples of Army banners that technically can't be Army banners, and an overlord who can't be an overlord... I detect a theme.

Though Sauron without Overlord seems crazy if Saruman and Durburz (sort of) has it, and even Gandalf the White, for Pete's sake.

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 Post subject: Re: WotR - Rohan Royal Standard Question
PostPosted: Fri May 13, 2011 12:44 pm 
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I agree that Sauron probably was a fluke on not getting Overlord (along the same lines, I think the Necromancer was a fluke to be stuck at H2K instead of VH2K...300 points for H2K????).

It's a lot of work getting something like WotR out the door, and no matter how much we may be disappointed I'm not surprised by oversights, errors, conflicts, and gray-areas. The acknowledgement and intelligent resolution of those is what separates a

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 Post subject: Re: WotR - Rohan Royal Standard Question
PostPosted: Fri May 13, 2011 2:54 pm 
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Beowulf03809 wrote:
It's a lot of work getting something like WotR out the door, and no matter how much we may be disappointed I'm not surprised by oversights, errors, conflicts, and gray-areas. The acknowledgement and intelligent resolution of those is what separates a


Oh Totally. Overall it's a fast flowing game capturing the clash of mighty armies without too much tedious minutiae of turning radii and all sorts of realistic but time-sinking rules.

Some of these points raised aren't in the pinned thread about rules/errata?

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 Post subject: Re: WotR - Rohan Royal Standard Question
PostPosted: Fri May 13, 2011 10:03 pm 
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Beowulf: I agree that it's something to consider when referring to why you would/wouldn't have the models, but not as a point in the tactical abilities of them ;) I agree though, that I wouldn't take any of the all-metal units except for Khazad Guard (which is only because of the Balin's Guard box).

daersalon: I agree that common sense says that it should be an army banner and that's why I'd use it as such. However, as has been pointed out, there are many errors (including the Overlord reference) where they have simply not carried a thought through to the rules properly or not removed it from examples properly, etc.
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 Post subject: Re: WotR - Rohan Royal Standard Question
PostPosted: Mon May 16, 2011 4:35 pm 
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Hashut's Blessing wrote:
Beowulf: I agree that it's something to consider when referring to why you would/wouldn't have the models, but not as a point in the tactical abilities of them ;) I agree though, that I wouldn't take any of the all-metal units except for Khazad Guard (which is only because of the Balin's Guard box).


Not so much as to say "this is a metal model, so it should be better", but rather "I can't believe GW is so stupid as to think we'll cough up money for metal models when they don't play as well as half as many cheaper plastics". :rofl:

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 Post subject: Re: WotR - Rohan Royal Standard Question
PostPosted: Mon May 16, 2011 9:43 pm 
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I don't even think it should be "metal models are better", rather "metal models are for smaller units/specific upgrades like command groups".
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 Post subject: Re: WotR - Rohan Royal Standard Question
PostPosted: Mon May 16, 2011 9:58 pm 
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Hashut's Blessing wrote:
I don't even think it should be "metal models are better", rather "metal models are for smaller units/specific upgrades like command groups".


Several all-metal units ARE better, though. Compare Khazad Guard to Dwarf Warriors, or Rohan Royal Knights to Riders, or (most tellingly) Gundabad Blackshields to regular Goblins.

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 Post subject: Re: WotR - Rohan Royal Standard Question
PostPosted: Tue May 17, 2011 10:11 am 
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Better than their own plastic counterparts, of course, but in many cases metal models are not a cost effective way to field units in WotR. This may not always be the case but as this thread is about the Royal Standard, and it's part of the Kings Guard formation that's what I was basing this on. The discussion turn was when it was asked if the Royal Standard really should have both it's special rule and normal Banner rules and perhaps even Army Banner. I was just pointing out that since it will cost about $180 to get all the models for this Formation it should be worth the dollar investment. Why spend $180 on a formation of metal models when $90 of plastic Mordor will own it on the table?

Yes a lot of it comes to play, other formations in the army, scenario, etc., but my point was just that GW shouldn't get "cheap" with the rules of metal models (compared to the standards of plastics) when they sure don't get cheap with the prices. And we're learning how THAT factor is going to get worse as well.

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 Post subject: Re: WotR - Rohan Royal Standard Question
PostPosted: Tue May 17, 2011 10:05 pm 
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Something to note: Those same metals will be more expensive and in the cheaper medium of resin.

So, for something materialistically similar in cost and ridiculously higher in price, the rules could at least reflect the owner's personal investment into them. Otherwise, they won#t be bought in favour of cheaper, cheaper, better troops.

Endline, nothing says it's a banner or army banner, but it should do because of an endless number of reasons, including (but not limited to): productions cost, purchase cost, points cost, rules examples, WYSIWYG and so on.
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 Post subject: Re: WotR - Rohan Royal Standard Question
PostPosted: Wed May 18, 2011 2:18 pm 
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Hashut's Blessing wrote:
Endline, nothing says it's a banner or army banner, but it should do because of an endless number of reasons, including (but not limited to): productions cost, purchase cost, points cost, rules examples, WYSIWYG and so on.


Agreed! Now let's wait for some 40K-only flunky at GW to respond "sorry...not a banner" and then GW can make a $50 resin version of Gamling that DOES count as a banner/army banner/Royal Standard...but mysteriously looks the same. :D

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 Post subject: Re: WotR - Rohan Royal Standard Question
PostPosted: Mon May 23, 2011 5:46 am 
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If it looks like a banner, and flutters around in the air like a banner, its a freaking banner. The special rules for said banners are unique to it and "unless otherwise noted, all effects from special rules, war gear etc. are cumulative.", pg. 61. So unless the special rules says it doesn't act like a banner than it does. That's my 2 cents.

And I would also say that it would act as an army banner since the banner is not plain and also because its not "otherwise noted" that its not an army banner.

Go to town on that one.

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 Post subject: Re: WotR - Rohan Royal Standard Question
PostPosted: Mon May 23, 2011 6:01 am 
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I agree with Slythar, however I haven't had an instance thus far where the Royal Standard needed to act as an Army Banner in the first place. We've just treated it as a regular banner with it's special rule in my gaming group. I also use my dismounted Gamling w/ Standard model as my Royal Guard Banner Bearer so it kinda reinforces the point.

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