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(WotR) Rohan Outriders without Captain
http://test.one-ring.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=49&t=18509		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  Tankred [ Thu May 20, 2010 8:58 am ]
Post subject:  (WotR) Rohan Outriders without Captain
I would like to field an skirmishing unit of Rohan outriders. Without an captain I think it is very hard to keep them in Bow distance and out of the way of the enemy charge.

However they are Excellent riders but have no captain. If I would like to skirmish with them, I need to have an epic heroe only for that purpose.

There is no other common formation within Men, Dwarves and Elves which has no captain. Do you think it is a simple mistake in the rulebook or a limitiation for the skilled bowmen?
Author:  Hashut's Blessing [ Thu May 20, 2010 12:29 pm ]
Post subject: 
First off: War of the Ring has no skirmishing, so I'm not sure what you mean when you're bringing that up.

Secondly: it's not a mistake, just that the Outriders don't have captains. Outriders are essentially scouts that move ahead of the main army to check out what's what. (That's likely why their movement is higher.) They aren't very good at hand to hand combat because they are there to be eyes and ears and report back, but their shoot value is better because of keen eyes.

Essentially, they are scouts and usually go about on their own, even if they end up together in a battle situation (which they try to avoid getting into if possible) and so aren't a typical "regiment" (fluffwise) and thusly wouldn't have a captain other than the head of the army, which leads all other captains.

Hope that helps!
Author:  Tankred [ Thu May 20, 2010 1:56 pm ]
Post subject: 
Well, in does not need a ruleset to say that I want to skirmish with some troops. That is a somewhat strange view on wargaming if you ask me.

Skimishing means, that you fire on the enemy and retreat if the enemy comes near. If you want to do that in War of the Ring excellent riders and Marching would work pretty good, especially if you play on a huge table.

Scouts do need movement, too. Without a heroe, troops in War of the ring are ridiculous slow. So why on earth there is no corresponding captain in that formation???

Your argument, that a Scout unit is not a regiment and has no leader ist simply wrong in my eyes. Especially Scouts are well trained troops with experieced leaders because reconnaisance is very important. Just think of Faramir and his men in Ithilien.
Author:  Hellfury [ Thu May 20, 2010 2:04 pm ]
Post subject: 
I played against these last week in a westfold scenario between wargs and rohan cav.

These are simply amazing when used right and require the inclusion of an epic hero. Captains would be nice but since rohan has such cheap epic heroes who are better than captains anyways it would be a shame to not include deorwine or similar.

I dont think it is a mistake that they lack a capt. option. I think they are so good that to give them a capt. by default would wreck the balance somehow. Granted I am not a rohan player. But I think that for a skirmishing, hit and run formation they are very good when used correctly because of the very large ranged output and how they can be applied like a scalpel across the field on demand (with the help of at the double of course).
Author:  Beowulf03809 [ Thu May 20, 2010 5:42 pm ]
Post subject: 
Tankred, your reaction to HB regarding the term skirmishing comes across a bit rough. Maybe it wasn't intended that way, but…

In many war games, especially those that play to the WotR scale, there are very specific rules that cover "skirmishing" with specific units. You describe a basic hit-and-run tactic to which you are using the term skirmish but expressing it in a way that it could be interpreted like a specific action within the game (which some wargames do). Additionally, among the GW LotR gaming community, the Strategy Battle Game (SBG) is considered a "skirmish" level game while WotR is considered "formation" level. Though that's not an official GW statement, for those of us playing since before WotR it's pretty commonly accepted terminology, and for many of us when the term skirmish is used it implies the smaller scale, non-formation based use of models.

All that aside, a cheap Captain option probably would upset the balance in favor of these guys as mentioned. They are very effective when used properly (hit and run) and Rohan does have a lot of affordable Heroes that you can add in. I do question if a Hero is really required for them though since they are able to both full move and fire, and with their extra move they can already outmaneuver and out shoot most other Formations in the game. It would be nice to At the Double or Heroic Shoot so throw in a Hero if you can, but by keeping them "headless" may also create a situation where your opponent isn't paying as much attention to them. Heroes do tend to attract focus.
Author:  hithero [ Thu May 20, 2010 5:50 pm ]
Post subject: 
Hashut - you don't need a rule to skirmish, it's just another tactic to use when trying to avoid melee.
Tankred, hi not heard from you for a while now. I can see no reason why the Outriders have no captain, doesn't make any logical or gaming sense to me. Every formation is lead by someone and it certainly wouldn't unbalance them in anyway, after all Might is limited. Maybe you could add Deorwine or Eowyn into the formation?
Author:  Beowulf03809 [ Thu May 20, 2010 7:46 pm ]
Post subject: 
There are a few Formations that don't have a Hero option, but the only one I know for sure are Castellans, but they're Legendary (they also have We Stand Alone which is really frustrating because they keep getting left behind in my At The Double charges across the board).

For some reason I thought Orc Trackers and Spectral Hosts (both Common?) also don't allow for a Captain either. I can't think of any Good Formations that fall into this.

For each of these cases I think play balance (assuming play testing here... :rofl: ) may have shown that the Formation was just too potent with an easy option for a generic Captain.
Author:  Hashut's Blessing [ Thu May 20, 2010 9:20 pm ]
Post subject: 
Thanks Beowulf ;) As has been said, the LotR version is a "skirmish" game, models in 40k units are skirmishing and Warhammer (my primary system) even has a special rule of skirmishing.

I've not heard of the ranged hit and run tactic be known as skirmishing before as I've always taken it from my readings and history-learnings that it means a "short and small conflict".

Anyhow, regardless, now I know what you're referring to, which gives me a better understanding of what you had meant.

"Your argument, that a Scout unit is not a regiment and has no leader ist simply wrong in my eyes. Especially Scouts are well trained troops with experieced leaders because reconnaisance is very important. Just think of Faramir and his men in Ithilien."

I wasn't speaking of them, in that sense. They would certainly have someone to train them, but they would likely be the most experienced or even non-active. The one that would give them orders would likely be the commander of the whole force. They would then branch out on their out to attain information, rather than as a unit acting cohesively upon the battlefield. Faramir and his men aren't scouts: they are ment hat use guerilla warfare, stealth and range instead of bruteforce to obtain victory.


Also, if you want a figurehead in the unit, get a captain or take Elfhelm's Eored (or whatever it's called) and go down that route. As to the slowness of the formation, they DO have movement 12, which is nothing to be sniffed at, they can move full distance and shoot AND charge if they'd like.

Not sure (as I haven't the book to hand) as I have randomly forgotten, lol, but does At The Double! not disallow shooting?
Author:  Hellfury [ Fri May 21, 2010 5:23 am ]
Post subject: 
Hashut's Blessing wrote:
does At The Double! not disallow shooting?


No shooting after at the double unless heroic shoot is called.

But thats not the point. The point is to get them where they need to go and this units move makes it one that is capable of doing just that. 36" heroic move is nothing to sneeze at and thus getting rear charges of against infantry. The only thing better with such maneuverability is flying monsters. And because these are cavalry, I might say that the charge attacks are going to be quite nasty even though this unit isnt meant for CC.
Author:  Tankred [ Fri May 21, 2010 2:11 pm ]
Post subject: 
Indeed my answer was meant somewhat harsh or let me put it in this way: clear. Sorry if you guys are not used to that way, I am from germany and we tend to be less polite and more direct in discussions.

I do play more than WotR and do a lot of historic stuff, reading history books and so on. Therefore my opinion is thas skirmishing is not a "wargamers" term but simply a military term. Always keep that in mind. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skirmish. Although a skirmish is a word for a small battle the main meaning is the kind of troop, which hits and run with light distance weapons.

To be honest the thesis that a Captain would overpower the Outriders sounds very strange in my eyes since there are so many really overpowered formations, heroes and special rules that a mere captain seems to me no threat for the balance.

Beowulf03809, your thesis on "heroes attract attention" ist very interesting and sounds right. I played 3 games with a heroeless formation and it was not attacked.

hithero, yes I often only read here on one ring but now I decided to be a more active part of the international community as you do in our german forums ;)
Eowyn sounds excellent as a leader for them to me (although she was under cover in the book and therefore no leader).

Thank you for the interesting discussion!
Author:  Beowulf03809 [ Fri May 21, 2010 3:08 pm ]
Post subject: 
Eowyn is actually an interesting option for Outriders because of her ability in WotR to 'hide' until you're ready for her, and the fact that she's a pretty affordable means your opponent may not be looking for her on the table. When you get into a decent position, reveal her, call an At the Double or such then surprise them with a quick swing-around to charge.

Remember the FAQ recently confirmed that you can have a Formation do an 'about face' and turn all your Companies 180 degrees (as long as you don't rearrange) without needing to use movement, so if you're trying to surprise them with a rear charge you need to be sure to do it on a turn where your opponent has Priority and has already moved.
Author:  Hashut's Blessing [ Fri May 21, 2010 3:30 pm ]
Post subject: 
Hellfury: I thought not and thanks for confirming ;)

However, my reason for asking was directly related to Tankred's original questioning, which answers his question: no hero is necessary for At the Dobule! because, unless you use a Heroic Shoot as well, then you can't At the Double! and shoot in the sense that he was asking about, making a captain (for THAT particular reason) null in worth.

Tankred: clarity and directness are completely fine (and thanks for being so. it was my lack of understanding the correct meaning of skirmish that led to confusion, to which I admitted), but politeness can be included despite that ;) Not that you were rude, btw.

I agree that they wouldn't make them overpowered, but what I do find is that a captain is unnecessary and untehmatic, personally.

Having said all of that, I stand by it not being a mistake that they can't have a captain (likely because they are scouts, rather than skirmishers/guerilla warfare soldiers), but if you want the advantages, take a cheap hero. Erkenbrand has decent rules, Eowyn can be hidden to reduce unfriendly activity in the Outriders' area until you need her abilities, etc...
Author:  spuds4ever [ Sun May 23, 2010 3:50 pm ]
Post subject: 
Outriders are silly IMO as it's stupid that they have sv of 2+.
Author:  hithero [ Sun May 23, 2010 5:29 pm ]
Post subject: 
spuds4ever wrote:
Outriders are silly IMO as it's stupid that they have sv of 2+.

Why is it stupid?
Author:  Helm Hammerhand [ Sun May 23, 2010 5:37 pm ]
Post subject: 
They are supposed to be scouts,so a strength of 2 would make sense.And hopefully they won't be put into combat,just galloping along the edges of the enemy line peppering bow fire.
Author:  Hashut's Blessing [ Sun May 23, 2010 5:41 pm ]
Post subject: 
Helm Hammerhand: I think he means the shoot value ;)
Author:  Hellfury [ Sun May 23, 2010 11:11 pm ]
Post subject: 
hithero wrote:
spuds4ever wrote:
Outriders are silly IMO as it's stupid that they have sv of 2+.

Why is it stupid?

I second Hithero's question..
Author:  7Thunders [ Sun May 23, 2010 11:47 pm ]
Post subject: 
well,I use outriders with eowyn. I can definatley confirm,that if your opponent let's them get to the side or rear of one of his formations,it's bad news for him :yay:

I try not to get them into combat directly. I run them around and jockey for a good position.

their shoot value is insane.it's better than some of the elves listed in the book.

I use eowyn as my ace in the hole just in case i do get locked into combat.

fun stuff.
Author:  Xelee [ Sun May 23, 2010 11:57 pm ]
Post subject: 
Thanks 7Thunders, I hadn't thought of that one and it's good to see a 'trick' on the net that could actually prove useful.

Being Cav, they need that shoot value to achieve anything. Getting into shootouts with foot, when your opponent brings foot bow of their own, is risky enough as it is. I like this idea of having it unclear which formation could suddenly double move or pull a heroic action and get around the flank very much.
Author:  Helm Hammerhand [ Mon May 24, 2010 1:12 pm ]
Post subject: 
@Hashut's Blessing,thanks for the clarification.

Seeing as most Elves have a shoot value of 3,I am a tad bit confused.These are Men on horseback,and they have a higher shoot value than Elves on foot :roll:
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