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| WotR - Epics joining allied formations http://test.one-ring.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=49&t=20279 |
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| Author: | Morgoth's Dad [ Thu Feb 24, 2011 1:42 pm ] |
| Post subject: | WotR - Epics joining allied formations |
Can an allied epic join an allied formation of another realm during battle or can they only join their own realm formations? e.g. Khamul joining a formation of Easterlings. Legal? |
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| Author: | BlackMist [ Thu Feb 24, 2011 1:56 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Epics joining allied formations |
Yes. There is nothing in the rules that would disallow it. You are even free to put a Dwarf on a Horse formation, or have Amdur fly with Bat Swarms. |
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| Author: | Morgoth's Dad [ Thu Feb 24, 2011 2:48 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Epics joining allied formations |
BlackMist wrote: Yes. There is nothing in the rules that would disallow it. You are even free to put a Dwarf on a Horse formation, or have Amdur fly with Bat Swarms. Thanks Blackmist. You're right there's nothing that says it can't be done, and i'm happy to allow my friend to do it with his Mordor/Easterling army. Although I can envisge some opponents frowning on, for example, Gimli leading a High Elf Cohort. 
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| Author: | Hashut's Blessing [ Thu Feb 24, 2011 2:50 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Epics joining allied formations |
Even if it couldn't be, just thought it best to point out that Khamul is a part of the Fallen Realms list anyway, so your example was moot 
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| Author: | Morgoth's Dad [ Thu Feb 24, 2011 4:02 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Epics joining allied formations |
Hashut's Blessing wrote: Even if it couldn't be, just thought it best to point out that Khamul is a part of the Fallen Realms list anyway, so your example was moot edit: You are right, page 201. Blimey this book is all over the place 
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| Author: | General Elessar [ Thu Feb 24, 2011 5:34 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Epics joining allied formations |
Morgoth's Dad wrote: Hashut's Blessing wrote: Even if it couldn't be, just thought it best to point out that Khamul is a part of the Fallen Realms list anyway, so your example was moot No he isn't, he's on the Mordor list. I'm talking WotR here. Yes... Khamul, the Betrayer, the Knight of Umbar, and Dark Marshal (and another one?) are all part of both the Mordor and Fallen Realms lists. |
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| Author: | Morgoth's Dad [ Thu Feb 24, 2011 6:04 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Epics joining allied formations |
General Elessar wrote: Morgoth's Dad wrote: Hashut's Blessing wrote: Even if it couldn't be, just thought it best to point out that Khamul is a part of the Fallen Realms list anyway, so your example was moot No he isn't, he's on the Mordor list. I'm talking WotR here. Yes... Khamul, the Betrayer, the Knight of Umbar, and Dark Marshal (and another one?) are all part of both the Mordor and Fallen Realms lists. Aha, found it, page 201. Thanks GE. Apologies Hashut's Blessing, you are right. |
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| Author: | Jobu [ Thu Feb 24, 2011 6:32 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Epics joining allied formations |
BlackMist wrote: Yes. There is nothing in the rules that would disallow it. You are even free to put a Dwarf on a Horse formation, or have Amdur fly with Bat Swarms. Amdur can not fly with a bat swarm because bat swarms do not have command options and therefore have no command company. |
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| Author: | BlackMist [ Fri Feb 25, 2011 10:24 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: WotR - Epics joining allied formations |
We've gone through this countless times on forums. Every formation has a command company because of the basic Command Company rules on page 60, paragraph 2, line 1 "The command company is the first company in a formation". The options shown in the profiles are the options which you can buy, they have nothing to do with having a command company or not. If a formation without command company can't be joined by Epics, then that makes the rule We Stand Alone completely useless and it should make you wonder why do Vault Wardens have that rule if by your understanding they don't have a Command Company anyway? |
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| Author: | Morgoth's Dad [ Fri Feb 25, 2011 3:06 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: WotR - Epics joining allied formations |
BlackMist wrote: We've gone through this countless times on forums. Every formation has a command company because of the basic Command Company rules on page 60, paragraph 2, line 1 "The command company is the first company in a formation". I don't think that is clear at all. That whole section is specifically about Command Companies, so isn't it obvious that the line is only applicable to formations which have command companies? It doesn't say anywhere in the rules that every formation has a command company, it just says that the command company is the first company in a formation (but only in formations which have command companies). Because your quote is taken from a section called Command Companies surely the assumption must be that description only applies to formations which have command companies and not formations like the bats? You're right, what's the point of Vault Wardens having 'We Stand Alone'? I'd suggest that is a mistake in the rules, or just a shorthand way of saying they have no command company and no epics attached? The unit which gives the whole game away is Orc Tracker Warband. It says 'The first company purchased is automatically the command company' but gives no command options. Why would it bother to say that at all if the assumption is that all formations have command companies? The reason is that the devs specifically tell you when a unit has a command company, so therefore when this sentence isn't present they don't. The key phrase is 'The first company purchased is automatically the command company.' that line is not only there as an introduction to command options, because the command options is covered by a separate sentence below. The two sentences are not part of the same description. Orc Tracker Warband proves that point. Whatever the discussions on the forums, if you are playing command companies in every formation then in my opinion that's a mistake because of the existance of Orc Tracker Warband on p.154. The rules are fairly ambiguous in parts, but this one seems clear to me. Where is the thread on discussion of this as i'd like to read it? Has no one commented on the existance of the Orc Tracker Warband before? |
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| Author: | Jobu [ Fri Feb 25, 2011 3:41 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: WotR - Epics joining allied formations |
BlackMist wrote: We've gone through this countless times on forums. Every formation has a command company because of the basic Command Company rules on page 60, paragraph 2, line 1 "The command company is the first company in a formation". The options shown in the profiles are the options which you can buy, they have nothing to do with having a command company or not. If a formation without command company can't be joined by Epics, then that makes the rule We Stand Alone completely useless and it should make you wonder why do Vault Wardens have that rule if by your understanding they don't have a Command Company anyway? "The command company is the first company in a formation" is not the entire sentence, and speaks to a location, which is how the sentence is structured even if taken by itself. This half sentence is actually meaningless on it's own due to it only being half of a sentence. The other part of that sentence is used to add context. The entire sentence, as well as most of the paragraph, identify the location of the command company. It is IN the formation, not OF the formation. This is clear as day english referring to a location, not ownership or possession. We stand alone is there to keep Epics out of certain formations that have command options. The reason it has been argued countless times is certainly because people are confused, the rules are not clear and there are probably errors in the bestiary which make it worse/more confusing. However, as written, the language on page 60 indicates a location. |
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| Author: | BlackMist [ Fri Feb 25, 2011 5:17 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: WotR - Epics joining allied formations |
Morgoth's Dad wrote: it just says that the command company is the first company in a formation (but only in formations which have command companies) No. It doesn't say "but only in formations which have command companies" - it says "the first company in a formation is the command company" As for positioning of the company, that's described later in the same sentence. "The first company in a formation is the command company" - refers to the first company bough being a command. "and is always placed as near to the centre of a formation's front rank as possible" - refers to the placement. I agree that this is a case for a grey area/FAQ/Long discussion with no clear answer, so either interpretation can be correct. The Orc Tracker can be a mistake in the same way as We Stand Alone in Vault Wardens can be a mistake, because the Tracker formation is the only formation in the book that has that line but no upgrades. |
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| Author: | Morgoth's Dad [ Fri Feb 25, 2011 5:35 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: WotR - Epics joining allied formations |
BlackMist wrote: Morgoth's Dad wrote: it just says that the command company is the first company in a formation (but only in formations which have command companies) No. It doesn't say "but only in formations which have command companies" - it says "the first company in a formation is the command company" As for positioning of the company, that's described later in the same sentence. "The first company in a formation is the command company" - refers to the first company bough being a command. "and is always placed as near to the centre of a formation's front rank as possible" - refers to the placement. I agree that this is a case for a grey area/FAQ/Long discussion with no clear answer, so either interpretation can be correct. The Orc Tracker can be a mistake in the same way as We Stand Alone in Vault Wardens can be a mistake, because the Tracker formation is the only formation in the book that has that line but no upgrades. You misunderstood what i meant in that part you quoted. I know what it says in the rules, my bit I added in parenthesis to make the point that this is printed in a section called Command Companies, and therefore only refers to formations that have command companies as described in their unit descriptions. Anyone reading that line, applying it to all formations, and ignoring the fact it is in a section which is only referring to command companies is making a mistake. I didn't say anything about positioning or placement of the company. It's whether or not all formations have a command company that is the issue. I don't think there is any grey area at all. I wouldn't be happy to play against an opponent who thinks that they can have command companies in any kind of formation because in my opinion that is a complete misreading of the rules. I don't think Orc Tracker is a mistake, but if it is they also need to include errata which says somethings to the effect that 'all formations have a command company unless otherwise overruled by We Stand Alone or something similar...'. |
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