The One Ring
http://test.one-ring.co.uk/

WotR - Rohan Royal Standard Question
http://test.one-ring.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=49&t=20529		 Page 1 of 3
Author:  Beowulf03809 [ Fri Apr 01, 2011 4:26 pm ]
Post subject:  WotR - Rohan Royal Standard Question
Greetings, all.

I wanted to see if anyone can confirm (with a pointer to a page number or FAQ item) that the Royal Standard of Rohan also counts as a standard Banner? It would really seem like it should, as I don't believe you can otherwise can't get a Banner in the formation and, well...it's a banner. :roll: But unless I'm missing something it isn't explicit in the description.

As always, thanks in advance! 8)
Author:  ForgottenLore [ Fri Apr 01, 2011 5:17 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: WotR - Rohan Royal Standard Question
No, its an oversight in the rules.

For friendly play I certainly would mind counting it as such, but RAW it only has the effects specified.
Author:  Beowulf03809 [ Fri Apr 01, 2011 6:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: WotR - Rohan Royal Standard Question
That's what I was afraid of. Hopefully another FAQ clarification (if they ever do a second FAQ). Typical...GW's lucky it's the only game in town for LotR. :?
Author:  beerandkebab [ Mon May 09, 2011 10:10 am ]
Post subject:  Re: WotR - Rohan Royal Standard Question
Check the special rules for Gamling, Captain of Rohan. Page 86 Mini rulebook, mines of moria box set. this states, Royal standard of Rohan. This precious heirloom counts as a normal banner. In addition any hero who has 0 might points at the start of the turn automatically adds 1 point might to his store if he starts the turn within 3inch/8cm ofthe Royal standard of Rohan. This does not include Gamling himself. hope this helps you form an opinion.
Author:  BlackMist [ Mon May 09, 2011 12:45 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: WotR - Rohan Royal Standard Question
Beerandkebab - Please do not answer WotR rules questions referring to the SBG rulebook, they are two different games...

It doesn't say in the WotR rulebook that it's a banner, although it seems silly not to allow it to be a banner...
Author:  Sacrilege83 [ Mon May 09, 2011 2:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: WotR - Rohan Royal Standard Question
Actually read Page 60 of the WOTR rulebook: Command Companies, Army Banner, 1st paragraph, 6th line and there you'll find your answer. To simply put it: yes it is a banner. I play with Rohan which I get my butt kicked all the time, so I should know.
Author:  Hashut's Blessing [ Mon May 09, 2011 3:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: WotR - Rohan Royal Standard Question
Actually, it is referenced as being an example of a glorious banner for an army, but the ruling within it's profile doesn't state that it is. Contrary to sense, the rules actually don't say that it is a banner or an army banner and, resultingly, shouldn't be used as one until an FAQ/errata corrects the stupidity of it.

Feel free to house rule it (as you clearly are), I would too, but don't tell people that it is as fact when it actually isn't.
Author:  Sacrilege83 [ Mon May 09, 2011 3:15 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: WotR - Rohan Royal Standard Question
Now you have started a debate. I say that it is referenced under Army Banner along with Halbarad's Banner of the King. So would you include Halbarad's Banner being a banner or not? Banners and standards are the same thing and are interchangeable terms and I'm not just saying this, it is in the damn paragraph I've pointed out.
Author:  ForgottenLore [ Mon May 09, 2011 3:39 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: WotR - Rohan Royal Standard Question
Sacrilege83 wrote:
Actually read Page 60 of the WOTR rulebook: Command Companies, Army Banner, 1st paragraph, 6th line and there you'll find your answer. To simply put it: yes it is a banner. I play with Rohan which I get my butt kicked all the time, so I should know.


Except that the Royal Standard of Rohan isn't identified as an army banner either, just implied. In fact, nothing indicates that it has any rules other than those specified on page 112.

Like has been said, I think it is an oversight and is MEANT to be an army banner, and would be happy to play it that way, but the rules don't say that it is.

ack, massively ninja'd.
Author:  Sacrilege83 [ Mon May 09, 2011 3:58 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: WotR - Rohan Royal Standard Question
^Okay, then what it is, is common sense, no? We're all in agreement that the rules are hogwash(!?!), but if we're going to be speaking strictly technical that if it doesn't mention it in the profile then the rule doesn't apply. Then I ask you guys this in a strictly technical matter and not common sense: What formation includes an "Army Banner" option in it's profile? Not "Banner Bearer" because that's a different term, but "Army Banner". What qualifies as an Army Banner? Where does it say in the rules literally that any banner bearer can be chosen to be the Army Banner?

Now I don't know the rulebook inside and out like the back of my hand so I could be wrong, but I don't remember seeing any other details on this matter besides pg60. If you guys can find the reference in the book, fine then I'll give you guys the point, but if I'm correct there shouldn't be any Army Banner option technically speaking, meaning that the Army Banner rule is null and void. In other words GW meant for people to use their common sense and not just rely on technicalities.
Author:  ForgottenLore [ Mon May 09, 2011 4:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: WotR - Rohan Royal Standard Question
Calm down Sacrilege, no one is attack you personally.

As far as I know the only ways (by strict RAW) of getting an army banner is the Banner of the Free People fortune, the Banner of Barad Dur fate and (sort of) Gothmog. Its possible I forget one or two but I think that's it.
Author:  Sacrilege83 [ Mon May 09, 2011 5:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: WotR - Rohan Royal Standard Question
I'm extremely p-o'd, my hands are shaking, I'm screaming at my computer screen, Aaaah!!! LOL, it's alright man I'm cool, I just enjoy a good debate on these forums when I can.

But you're right, I've completely overlooked the Fortunes and Fates, it would've helped if Pg.60 referenced those rules under Army Banner that it needs to be purchased.

My only argument now is my original one that because Gamling and Halbarad has been used as examples under the Army Banner subject that the rulebook officially recognizes them as banner bearers. Just like one understands that when you purchase a captain or epic hero you obtain the Heroic action rules without it being repeated in the profile. Same goes for Banner Bearer & Horn blower, you just refer to the rules automatically on page 60 because that's where their rules are mentioned under their name. The thing that is blurry about Halbarad & Gamling is that it doesn't strictly say Banner Bearer, though it says 'Banner' of the King and Rohan Royal 'Standard' (which according to page 60 is interchangeable with the word banner) in their name, which means it has to be assumed (this is the gray area) that they have the banner rules in addition to. But it comes from the horses mouth itself that they are recognized as banners otherwise they shouldn't have brought them up as examples on Pg60.

But anyways you guys do have a valid point on why it shouldn't be official. So... roll a D6: 1-3 not a banner, 4-6 is a banner???
Author:  Lord Hurin [ Mon May 09, 2011 5:58 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: WotR - Rohan Royal Standard Question
Oh, I don't think there's any question that they SHOULD count as banners. GW simply screwed up on the rules text and left it too vague. Would I allow an opponent to count it as an army banner? Definitely. Will every opponent allow you to? Doubtful.
Author:  ForgottenLore [ Mon May 09, 2011 7:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: WotR - Rohan Royal Standard Question
Lord Hurin wrote:
GW simply screwed up on the rules text and left it too vague.


NO!!!!! That could NEVER happen. GW rules are always the very epitome of clarity and readability.
Author:  Lord Hurin [ Mon May 09, 2011 8:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: WotR - Rohan Royal Standard Question
ForgottenLore wrote:
NO!!!!! That could NEVER happen. GW rules are always the very epitome of clarity and readability.


:wink:
Author:  Beowulf03809 [ Wed May 11, 2011 2:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: WotR - Rohan Royal Standard Question
I did send a message off for clarification on this and it has been forwarded on to the development team. If I ever hear anything directly back I'll be sure to update it here. I won't bother repeating the full message here since it mostly just sets context which this thread has covered already, but here are the questions I specifically asked for clarification on:

1. Does the Rohan Royal Guard formation benefit from the normal rules for having a Banner (as long as Gamling remains alive)?

2. Does the Banner rules apply even if the Royal Standard of Rohan upgrade is not purchased (Gamling always has the Banner with him)?

3. Does this also count as an Army Banner? Either normally or if the Royal Standard of Rohan upgrade is purchased, or do you also need to spend the points to get the Army Banner Fortune?

I also added a note that Halbarad has very similar situations.

Personally I believe that the formation should always have the benefit of a Banner as long as Gamling is alive in the formation. That is just common sense and fits fine within the cost of the Formation.

I would love if this also counted as an Army Banner all the time, or counted as an Army Banner if upgraded to the Royal Standard, but I think the costs come up short for those and you will need to get the Army Banner Fortune if you want that. At the same time though, Rohan, especially mounted, could use a little help against some of the Morgul Cheeze available in the game so I would be very thankful to hear it's a Banner + Army Banner all the time with the Royal Standard upgrade available. Considering it's an all-metal, Legendary Formation that is part of one of the weaker core armies in the game, I really doubt it would upset game balance.
Author:  daersalon [ Thu May 12, 2011 12:51 am ]
Post subject:  Re: WotR - Rohan Royal Standard Question
Gamling doesnt always have the banner with him... at leastI have a Gamling model sans a banner... So it's perfectly possible to play The King's Guard formation witha gamling and no standard. (well at least on foot..... mounted maybe not.. heh)

As for points... the Royal Standard of Rohan is a +50 point option... as is the Banner of the Free Peoples Fortune. Same value, except the Royal standard gives that 50% possibility of recovering Might spent on Heroic (not Epic) actions.

While I agree with above posts that the Rulebook doesn't *explicitly* say it's a banner, you have a model with a banner and costed to have/not have that banner. ergo it acts as a banner.

Not only that it's the banner (standard) of the King... If that isn't an Army banner... what is?

While there are woolly areas aplenty in WotR I don't think this is one really... beyond Common sense is the details mentioned briefly already above in the rule book p60 Under "Army Banners": "Army BAnners are larger and more impressive standards that serve as a rally point, not just to a single formation, but to the army as a whole. Army Banners make for not only powerful gaming pieces, but also incredibly impressive models - There are few sights finer than the mighty Rohirrim army going to war beneath the Royal Standard of Rohan or the Grey Company doing battle in the shadow of Halbarad's mighty standard"

Halbarad's standard and the Royal standard of Rohan have been explicitly cited as Army banners in that text. While it could have been referenced in the stat block, its clear from p60 its an Army Banner.

The Fortune and Fates are then ways that OTHER factions can obtain an Army banner, albeit without some of the special rules as for the Royal Standard.
Author:  ForgottenLore [ Thu May 12, 2011 2:29 am ]
Post subject:  Re: WotR - Rohan Royal Standard Question
So you think that for 50 points the Rohan formation gets the value of a banner (35 pts) plus an army banner (50 pts) plus an average of a 50% boost in might for ALL heroes in the formation, keeping in mind that the game values 1 pt of might at 25 pts? That's likely an easy 150-200 point value from that 50 points.

I'm not saying that shouldn't be the case, but given that page 60 is only implying it is an army banner and nothing else in the rules comments on the subject I would hardly say that it is clear.

Personally, after comparing the point values and stats for the formation with other Rohan formations, I am inclined to believe that it is meant to come with at least a regular banner as a standard part of the formation and the 50 pts is only upgrading it. I have only circumstantial evidence to support that idea though, nothing solid.
Author:  Lord Hurin [ Thu May 12, 2011 3:58 am ]
Post subject:  Re: WotR - Rohan Royal Standard Question
ForgottenLore wrote:
So you think that for 50 points the Rohan formation gets the value of a banner (35 pts) plus an army banner (50 pts) plus an average of a 50% boost in might for ALL heroes in the formation, keeping in mind that the game values 1 pt of might at 25 pts? That's likely an easy 150-200 point value from that 50 points.

I'm not saying that shouldn't be the case, but given that page 60 is only implying it is an army banner and nothing else in the rules comments on the subject I would hardly say that it is clear.

Personally, after comparing the point values and stats for the formation with other Rohan formations, I am inclined to believe that it is meant to come with at least a regular banner as a standard part of the formation and the 50 pts is only upgrading it. I have only circumstantial evidence to support that idea though, nothing solid.


Unless I'm mistaken, Army Banners count as normal banners as well as giving the benefit detailed on page 60. Therefore, it's not like an 85pt value PLUS the free Might.
Author:  ForgottenLore [ Thu May 12, 2011 4:19 am ]
Post subject:  Re: WotR - Rohan Royal Standard Question
Fair point.
Page 1 of 3 All times are UTC
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group
http://www.phpbb.com/