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Cavalry vs spears/pikes
http://test.one-ring.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=49&t=20836		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  valderalv [ Mon May 23, 2011 8:49 pm ]
Post subject:  Cavalry vs spears/pikes
Hi,

I just started playing the SBG, and I'm trying to figure out if spears and/or pikes get any special bonuses vs cavalry. The only thing I found out so far is that they add extra attacks to counter the double attack given to chargin cavalry, but I feel like spears/pikes should get some specific, spear vs cavalry only bonus. Am I missing this, or do I just need to unlearn what I have learned from games like Total War?
Author:  hithero [ Mon May 23, 2011 9:13 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Cavalry vs spears/pikes
You are not the first noob to ask this question. The game mechanics do not require any mods for cav V spear (and other rules). The density of a spear block means that you get 4 to 2 odds against cavalry half the time, spears do not need any additional advantage - play the game and see, the outcome is game balanced and at the same time realistic. Run 10 cavalry against the length of 2-rank infantry spears and see what happens.
Author:  TheGoblinTacticus [ Tue Jul 12, 2011 10:21 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Cavalry vs spears/pikes
Nope, they don't get a bonus when fightning against cavalry thereself, wich is in fact very stupid because it is the real reason why pikes were made, but indeed you can use it to counter the extra attack.
Author:  BlackMist [ Tue Jul 12, 2011 11:02 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Cavalry vs spears/pikes
By the rules there is no bonus specific to this, but the bonus comes from the mechanics as Hithero said. Note the following:

F3 warrior charged by F3 cavalryman has 34% chance of winning against 66% of the cavalryman.
F3 warrior with spear support against F3 cavalry has 50/50 chance of winning
F3 warrior with spear and pike support against F3 cavalry has 60% against 40% of winning combat.

I hope you can see where this is going - the more support you have, the bigger impact it makes for the combat and the greater it nullifies the cavalry bonus.

F4 warrior charged by F3 cavalry has 42% of winning
F4 supported charged by F3 cav has 61% of winning
F4 supported by spear and pike against F3 cav has 72% of winning.

Now if cavalry charged first, then due to priority the infantry can add additional models into the fight after that, which can result in something like 6 attacks vs 2 with higher fight, leading to stuff like 87% winning chances. At the same time Fight Value plays a big difference, as it allows big heroes to almost ignore the pike blocks and still rip through them like it is done in films ;)

There is clearly no need for any more specific rules. It is not stupid at all.
Author:  TheGoblinTacticus [ Tue Jul 12, 2011 4:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Cavalry vs spears/pikes
Yes, I understand the support part, no problem, but valderalv asked if they would get a bonus if they fought cavalry thereselfs, not if supporting. In real-life, pikes were made for this and they would stand in front of the army so the charging cavalry would run into the pikes. In SBG this bonus is not given. But, you are alright, if you see support like this, it would fit.
Author:  BlackMist [ Tue Jul 12, 2011 4:15 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Cavalry vs spears/pikes
You're not entirely correct. Pikes would stand yes, but they would stand several rows deep, therefore in game terms support each other, they wouldn't stand straight up against a cavalry model.
Also, in a tight spot it is much more difficult to actually turn a heavy pike when a rider is running straight at you and you're on your own. Only proper units really benefit from pikes.
Author:  Angularity [ Tue Jul 12, 2011 4:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Cavalry vs spears/pikes
I think the game system makes sense. Pikes should be used in large blocks; they always were in the 'real' world. Put the bad guys 4 deep, and you've got something that looks right and fights right. Put your pikes one deep, and you deserve all you get.

Even in the Napoleonic wars, they put blokes with bayonets 3 deep when they were fighting cavalry. Only the Brits were good enough to shoot 2 deep, and only the Glosters were good enough to defeat cavalry two deep, back-to-back...but then I'm drifting off-topic.
Author:  TheGoblinTacticus [ Tue Jul 12, 2011 8:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Cavalry vs spears/pikes
BlackMist wrote:
You're not entirely correct. Pikes would stand yes, but they would stand several rows deep, therefore in game terms support each other, they wouldn't stand straight up against a cavalry model.
Also, in a tight spot it is much more difficult to actually turn a heavy pike when a rider is running straight at you and you're on your own. Only proper units really benefit from pikes.


That's not really correct either.
The pike warrior could squat and point his pike towards the rider, "anchoring" the other side at the ground. If he does this in surprise, I guess the horseman could not stop his horse on time and the horse will run in the pike, leaving the warrior vurnable.
But let's not argue about this anymore, the question is answered, no pikes or spears won't get any advantage fightning charging cavalry on their own.
Author:  BlackMist [ Tue Jul 12, 2011 8:52 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Cavalry vs spears/pikes
You're not taking into account the fact that a man could be turned backwards to the incoming rider - should then the pike still help him? How would you represent that in the game where a model is free to rotate at any time and always has 360 degree view? Also, a man could often get terrified of an incoming horseman in the middle of the battle, not necessarily resulting in the correct positioning of his pike (if at all). You can't take all those things into account in a game, therefore the rules have to be as simple as they are and they work perfectly well, that's why they've been the same for 10 years.
Author:  hithero [ Wed Jul 13, 2011 11:41 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Cavalry vs spears/pikes
TheGoblinTacticus wrote:
BlackMist wrote:
You're not entirely correct. Pikes would stand yes, but they would stand several rows deep, therefore in game terms support each other, they wouldn't stand straight up against a cavalry model.
Also, in a tight spot it is much more difficult to actually turn a heavy pike when a rider is running straight at you and you're on your own. Only proper units really benefit from pikes.


That's not really correct either.
The pike warrior could squat and point his pike towards the rider, "anchoring" the other side at the ground. If he does this in surprise, I guess the horseman could not stop his horse on time and the horse will run in the pike, leaving the warrior vurnable.
But let's not argue about this anymore, the question is answered, no pikes or spears won't get any advantage fightning charging cavalry on their own.


In 'real life' pikes were only ever used unmasse, never as an effective one-on-one weapon, for those battles thats what the F is for - winner takes a stab at the other.
Author:  TheGoblinTacticus [ Thu Jul 14, 2011 7:01 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Cavalry vs spears/pikes
let's stop argueing, his question is answered
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