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 Post subject: Isildur's Bain (SBG)
PostPosted: Sun Apr 22, 2012 6:53 am 
Kinsman
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1) In the rulebook Isildur has "The Ring" rules does it follow that he has the same rules as Frodo? because the rulebook is not clear.

I suppose the answer is yes

2) So if he rides an Horse and he becomes "invisible" is the entire model (Isildur + horse) that cannot be seen or only Isilsur?
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 Post subject: Re: Isildur's Bain (SBG)
PostPosted: Sun Apr 22, 2012 7:36 am 
Elven Warrior
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I don't have the newer rulebooks, so I don't know how the new rules (if there are new rules) are.
But from what I interpreter from the rules the answer on your first question is yes.

Question 2 is interesting.
I don't know how it works, but I don't think that the entire model will be invisible.
The horses of the Nazgul didn't turn invisible, even though that the rings of the Nazgul are rings of powers.
The Nazgul put the rings of powers on, not the horses.

The Nazgul put robes on because if they didn't you wouldn't see the Nazgul.
And as far as I know when you put on a ring of power you go to the shadow world. (note I use shadow world because I don't have another name for it).

But then again the dwarves (as far as I know) and elves (their true form is in the shadow world) didn't turn invisible.
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 Post subject: Re: Isildur's Bain (SBG)
PostPosted: Sun Apr 22, 2012 2:07 pm 
Kinsman
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Yeah if we follow the book/film vision only the bearer becomes invisible...but the rulebook is not clear and also states : "The model is declared invisible..." and we all know that the model = Isildur + horse :roll:
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 Post subject: Re: Isildur's Bain (SBG)
PostPosted: Sun Apr 22, 2012 2:21 pm 
Loremaster
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Actually, I think you perception of the Nazgul is wrong. In the books, the Nazgul do have a physical appearance, but you can't see them because they're covered in robes. There are several references to the Nazgul's faces and eyes, which obviously implies that they were not, at least entirely, invisible.

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 Post subject: Re: Isildur's Bain (SBG)
PostPosted: Sun Apr 22, 2012 2:39 pm 
Kinsman
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Let's think about this using common sense... the wearer of the ring becomes invisible, so if you can manage to get the mount to wear the ring on of it's hoof...heee..heee. IMHO, only the wearer becomes invisible. If mounted, then imagine that the mount has no rider. Btw, "the controling player" is the individual who WINS the ability to move the ring bearer for that move phase according to "The Ring Rule".
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 Post subject: Re: Isildur's Bain (SBG)
PostPosted: Sun Apr 22, 2012 8:44 pm 
Elven Elder
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General Elessar wrote:
Actually, I think you perception of the Nazgul is wrong. In the books, the Nazgul do have a physical appearance, but you can't see them because they're covered in robes. There are several references to the Nazgul's faces and eyes, which obviously implies that they were not, at least entirely, invisible.

The only one mentioned as having eyes was the WK, and they were just glowing red orbs that appeared to be floating between his robed shoulders and his crown. No face or anything but his eyes were visible. In book terms, no the horse is not invisible. In game terms I would have to say that the horse would still be visible. I figure that the Ring works similarily to an Elven Cloak, which cannot be used on a horse.

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 Post subject: Re: Isildur's Bain (SBG)
PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2012 5:15 pm 
Kinsman
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''Three Rings for the Elven-kings under the sky,
Seven for the Dwarf-lords in their halls of stone,
Nine for Mortal Men doomed to die,
One for the Dark Lord on his dark throne
In the Land of Mordor where the Shadows lie.
One Ring to rule them all, One Ring to find them,
One Ring to bring them all and in the darkness bind them
In the Land of Mordor where the Shadows lie."

Not all rings of power grant the wearer invisibility.
E.g Galadriel is the bearer of the ring of power Nenya yet she dosn't gain invisibility, the seven dwarf lords are shown to be wearing their rings of power in the prologue of fellwship, again remaining visible.
The rings worn by the nine are rings of power yet their bearers are not made invisible by the ring itsself HOWEVER after decades of wearing the rings and being consumed by them they eventually wasted away and could only be seen by Sauron himself.

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 Post subject: Re: Isildur's Bain (SBG)
PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2012 7:16 pm 
Elven Warrior
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Indeed, my bad.

Note that the Nazgul from the films and the books are quite different.
In the books, sniffing and hunched wraiths are described.
The films, humanoid robed riders. I don't state that they are not humanoid riders in the books.
It has been to long since I've read/heard the books.

But as Draugluin said the WK had no distinctive face, only his glowing red eyes and a "voice" coming from between that and his robes. Also he had his crown on but again no face.

@ Stormcrow: They (the Nazgul) faded away and couldn't be seen.
But! they couldn't be seen by "normal" men , but they could be seen by elves as far as I know.
The "true" form of the elves is mentioned a few times.
For example: Frodo saw Glorfindel his true form if I'm right when he was in the world of the wraiths.
And Frodo could see the wraiths when he put on the ring.
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 Post subject: Re: Isildur's Bain (SBG)
PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2012 7:40 pm 
Loremaster
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"He [Frodo] could see them clearly now: they appeared to have cast aside their hoods and black cloaks, and they were robed in white and grey. Swords were naked in their pale hands; helms were on their heads. Their cold eyes glittered, and they called to him with fell voices." - Flight to the Ford

"I could not see any face, for his hood fell down so low; and I felt a sort of shiver down my back." - Farmer Maggots, A Short Cut to Mushrooms

Personally, I interpret both these passages as indicators that the Nazgul had some sort of physical appearance.

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 Post subject: Re: Isildur's Bain (SBG)
PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2012 8:54 pm 
Kinsman
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Hmmm so many good points about those dirty wraiths. Here is another thought though, if the one ring turns the wearer invisible, why is Sauron still visible when he wears it???
These little points are starting to make me question the historical accuracy of lotr!

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 Post subject: Re: Isildur's Bain (SBG)
PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2012 6:52 am 
Elven Warrior
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@ Stormcrow: Because Sauron is The Lord of the Rings.
The Ring has no power over him, he created it.
Every time Frodo put's the Ring on he get's closer to becoming a wraith under the power of Sauron.
Don't doubt the historical accuracy, Tolkien worked many many years on it and the thought the things good through.



When Tom Bombadil put the Ring on, nothing happened because the Ring had no power over Tom.
Tom is master over his country.
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 Post subject: Re: Isildur's Bain (SBG)
PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2012 7:22 am 
Kinsman
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I think instead that the One Ring gives his wearer different power in according to the situation and "power" of the possessor: for example each time Frodo wear the Ring he make it for evade something , Isildur equally wear the Ring to escape from orcs , Sauron instead is the Lord of the Rings and the One Ring itself is part of him so i suppose that he can control it perfectly and uses all Power the Ring gives him.

And i believe that if Aragorn/Gandalf/Galadriel,etc... would wear the One Ring they will not become only invisible :o

Btw can i have a clear answer to question 2 (in game terms) thx :P
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 Post subject: Re: Isildur's Bain (SBG)
PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2012 8:18 am 
Elven Warrior
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An answer for question 2 is not clear, one person says that it's not possible.
The other person says that the model is Isildur and his horse.

We are trying to interpret when someone becomes invisible.
I think that only Isildur turns invisible and not his horse.
If someone would hold Frodo (for example Boromir in the movies) would that person turn invisible also?
I'd say no, if another person won't turn invisible why would the horse turn invisible?

Also.. why would you want to use the ring on Isildur? He is strong and able enough.
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 Post subject: Re: Isildur's Bain (SBG)
PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2012 12:45 pm 
Elven Elder
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The Ring gave powers equivilent to the person wearing it, so someone without any innate power would just turn invisible. Gandalf mentioned that it would give him incredible powers, rivaling those that Sauron originally had, which would corrupt him. The reason why the Three, Seven and Nine didn't turn their wearers invisible is because they actually had control over them. The Elves (and Gandalf) could control their rings, which were uncorrupted by Sauron, the Dwarves were just too dang stubborn to turn invisible, in fact they didn't even gain the longevity associated with being a Ringbearer, and the Men were gifted their rings by Sauron and were the easiest to enthrall, so they most likely could control it like the others, but they soon faded. The only physical form that they had was given them by their robes and armor. No robes, no form.

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