Rozinante wrote:
Game changing nuance, in the spirit, but my ignorance cost me.
Yep, that sounds like fair tactics, which could have been prevented. It's frustrating, but probably not best countered by suicide
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| SBG Nazgul and 'killing leader' question http://test.one-ring.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=49&t=23183 |
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| Author: | Rozinante [ Tue Jun 05, 2012 7:49 pm ] |
| Post subject: | SBG Nazgul and 'killing leader' question |
Several scenarios say, "If you kill the enemy leader, you instead score 3 Victory Points." Say my leader is a Nazgul. Does my opponant have to actually kill it to get the 3 points (as the rule says)...or does he still get the 3 points if I choose to use up the will points and voluntarily 'banish' my leader, without my enemy actually killing/wounding it? It makes quite a difference how I play out those will points. |
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| Author: | SuicidalMarsbar [ Tue Jun 05, 2012 8:12 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: SBG Nazgul and 'killing leader' question |
No if you kill your leader yourself im pretty sure they get no points. |
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| Author: | Rozinante [ Tue Jun 05, 2012 8:25 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: SBG Nazgul and 'killing leader' question |
Thanks. That makes for some interesting strategy options...like preventing my opponent from getting the victory points by purposely using up the will points. |
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| Author: | SuicidalMarsbar [ Tue Jun 05, 2012 9:06 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: SBG Nazgul and 'killing leader' question |
Yeah, alternatively you could make someone jump off a tower or something if your not using a wraith. Also in the "contest of champion" type scenarios where your leader needs more kills than your opponent, it is often a good idea to get a headstart then, once broken, move your men out of the range of standfasts so as many of them die by something besides your leader. If you can adopt a "crush lemons to make lemonade" tactic then you will master scenarios with ease. |
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| Author: | GothmogtheWerewolf [ Tue Jun 05, 2012 10:02 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: SBG Nazgul and 'killing leader' question |
SuicidalMarsbar wrote: Yeah, alternatively you could make someone jump off a tower or something if your not using a wraith. Also in the "contest of champion" type scenarios where your leader needs more kills than your opponent, it is often a good idea to get a headstart then, once broken, move your men out of the range of standfasts so as many of them die by something besides your leader. If you can adopt a "crush lemons to make lemonade" tactic then you will master scenarios with ease. You have to kill enemies to gain points, killing you own troops does not count, as per the official FAQs. |
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| Author: | whafrog [ Tue Jun 05, 2012 10:07 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: SBG Nazgul and 'killing leader' question |
Rozinante wrote: Say my leader is a Nazgul. Does my opponant have to actually kill it to get the 3 points (as the rule says)...or does he still get the 3 points if I choose to use up the will points and voluntarily 'banish' my leader, without my enemy actually killing/wounding it? That seems pretty cheesy. If I were running a tournament I'd rule that your opponent gets 3 points unless you fail a courage test and run off the board. |
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| Author: | BlackMist [ Wed Jun 06, 2012 8:07 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: SBG Nazgul and 'killing leader' question |
Suicidalmarsbar wrote: No if you kill your leader yourself im pretty sure they get no points. Nonsense. Nazgul banishing counts as a casualty. Killing counts as a casualty. Failing a courage test counts as a casualty. The idea of the VPs is that you deny your general from being killed by your opponent, not killing him yourself. Same as if you jump off a cliff and you kill your own general. Otherwise it will lead to such absurd situations as the one described by the OP. The FAQ mentioned earlier is for Contest of Champions specifically. |
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| Author: | Rozinante [ Wed Jun 06, 2012 11:44 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: SBG Nazgul and 'killing leader' question |
whafrog wrote: Rozinante wrote: Say my leader is a Nazgul. Does my opponant have to actually kill it to get the 3 points (as the rule says)...or does he still get the 3 points if I choose to use up the will points and voluntarily 'banish' my leader, without my enemy actually killing/wounding it? That seems pretty cheesy. If I were running a tournament I'd rule that your opponent gets 3 points unless you fail a courage test and run off the board. I don't want to be cheesy. But I am consistantly beaten by experienced players who use nuances of rules to thier advantage---rightly so. That's the game. I hate hair splitting rules---but I need to know what I can do and can't. In this case, if my Nazgul leader has one will point remaining, do I charge into battle for those extra kills before 'banishing'---or do I keep him well out of trouble because my opponent would get 3 VP points? |
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| Author: | whafrog [ Wed Jun 06, 2012 1:47 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: SBG Nazgul and 'killing leader' question |
Rozinante wrote: ... I am consistantly beaten by experienced players who use nuances of rules to thier advantage---rightly so. I'm curious what those nuances are? Are they in the spirit of the game? I wouldn't say leaping your general off a cliff is in the spirit of the game. Rozinante wrote: In this case, if my Nazgul leader has one will point remaining, do I charge into battle for those extra kills before 'banishing'---or do I keep him well out of trouble because my opponent would get 3 VP points? Keep him well out of trouble, IMHO. |
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| Author: | Rozinante [ Wed Jun 06, 2012 2:31 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: SBG Nazgul and 'killing leader' question |
I agree: suicide is not in the spirit. Here is an example: my opponent's Saruman blasted a row of my men on their backs, then Boromir Mounted trotted through to charge my leader for a kill that won the game. Now I know that, had I arranged my fallen men just so, it would have presented an obstacle more than 20 cm wide that Boromir's horse would have had to pass a jump test to get over---and without rolling a six, he could not have charged that turn (though Might points would help for the six). Game changing nuance, in the spirit, but my ignorance cost me. The nuance that the controlling player gets to move his defeated men in any way---also cost me when I defeated a model into range of a Domination point, giving him the Victory Points. I'm learning. |
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| Author: | whafrog [ Wed Jun 06, 2012 7:03 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: SBG Nazgul and 'killing leader' question |
Rozinante wrote: Game changing nuance, in the spirit, but my ignorance cost me. Yep, that sounds like fair tactics, which could have been prevented. It's frustrating, but probably not best countered by suicide
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| Author: | Rozinante [ Thu Jun 07, 2012 9:14 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: SBG Nazgul and 'killing leader' question |
Normally, yes: suicide is not realistic i.e. cheesy. But if my Nazgul leader uses his last will point for game winning kills, and, with an evil laugh, disappears to fight another day....that leans more toward self-sacriface to win the battle (my opinion) On the topic question: very different opinions so far. Does my opponent have to do the actual killing for the 3 VP, or is death by any means---including failed courage test--sufficient? Other ideas? I'll be curous how the tournement judge rules. Thanks for all the input! |
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| Author: | theavenger001 [ Thu Jun 07, 2012 3:44 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: SBG Nazgul and 'killing leader' question |
I would assume that failing a courage test does not count for VP's, but fleeing from losing all your will from being in a fight would count, as your opponent had some part in killing him. If he flees because you used his last will to cast a spell I don't think that should count for the VP's. Though then you can just kill off your leader by burning through his will and take away the chance of your opponent getting the VP's... 
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| Author: | Draugluin [ Thu Jun 07, 2012 6:25 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: SBG Nazgul and 'killing leader' question |
I would say that if he dies by you burning his will (which would also count for running in and fighting) that your opponent doesn't get the victory points because he didn't do the killing. Even if he was in combat, he dies at the END of the fight phase, not while fighting someone, so it shouldn't count as a kill. I would say that, while cheesy, it is definitely in the spirit of the story, if not neccesarily the game. |
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| Author: | Draugluin [ Thu Jun 07, 2012 6:28 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: SBG Nazgul and 'killing leader' question |
whafrog wrote: Rozinante wrote: ... I am consistantly beaten by experienced players who use nuances of rules to thier advantage---rightly so. I'm curious what those nuances are? Are they in the spirit of the game? I wouldn't say leaping your general off a cliff is in the spirit of the game. If your general is, say, an orc like Gorbag, would you rather him be charged by Aragorn, or have him jump off a cliff, where he has a slight chance of surviving? I would say that jumping off a cliff rather than have him fight Aragorn is in the spirit of the game, which is to have fun. If it happens that throwin an orc off a cliff is fun (which I would say it is) AND it wins you the game, I would say go for it. |
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| Author: | SuicidalMarsbar [ Thu Jun 07, 2012 8:46 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: SBG Nazgul and 'killing leader' question |
Draugluin wrote: whafrog wrote: Rozinante wrote: ... I am consistantly beaten by experienced players who use nuances of rules to thier advantage---rightly so. I'm curious what those nuances are? Are they in the spirit of the game? I wouldn't say leaping your general off a cliff is in the spirit of the game. If your general is, say, an orc like Gorbag, would you rather him be charged by Aragorn, or have him jump off a cliff, where he has a slight chance of surviving? I would say that jumping off a cliff rather than have him fight Aragorn is in the spirit of the game, which is to have fun. If it happens that throwin an orc off a cliff is fun (which I would say it is) AND it wins you the game, I would say go for it. No Drauglin i mean't killing your models off to win the game, I.E failing courage tests and having captains jump off cliffs so they wil die and can't stand fast etc. Which tbh isn't really in the spirit of the game but lol it might help you win. |
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| Author: | Ring_of_Gyges [ Fri Jun 08, 2012 8:50 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: SBG Nazgul and 'killing leader' question |
I don't know that there is a definition of "kill" in the rules. I'd say that any game effect that causes a model to be permanently removed from the board is a kill, be it wounds, running out of will, failing courage, or anything else. The only thing I wouldn't count as a kill would be models that voluntarily leave the board as part of a victory condition (i.e. models who have to exit at a certain point to win the scenario). Theme-wise, you never "kill" a Ringwraith unless you destroy the Ring. Temporary banishment (however achieved) is the best one can hope for. |
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