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| SBG Rules Questions http://test.one-ring.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=49&t=23266 |
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| Author: | Battalia [ Tue Jun 19, 2012 5:02 pm ] |
| Post subject: | SBG Rules Questions |
I am pretty confidant in my interpretations of the rules so far, but we had a few upsets last weekend and a few hurt feelings, mainly due to playing with a new elf player, and partly due to a VERY strong performance by Rohan. So without further adieu: Rohan Question: A rider of rohan is charged by an ork. The phase then moves to Rohan who moves another RoR to charge said ork. In the combat phase, Rohan rolls 3 dice. 1 for the charged RoR, and 2 for the charging RoR. If Rohan is victorious, he rolls 6 dice for the wound. Is this correct? Elf Question: Thranduil is a recent addition to our gaming force, and our brand new elf player didn't hesitate to field him. After many warnings to all players about what he could do, nothing could prepare them for what happened. Elves VS dwarves. Dwarves had the priority, and moved into base contact with the elf front line. The phase then moved to the elf player who moved Thranduil to the front lines, cast natures wrath and knocked down all the dwarves who were in a battle with the elves. The dwarf player called he would use Gimli to resist the magic, but the elf player said you couldn't as no dice had been cast. It was his special ability. After some hurt feelings and some re-reading of the rule books, it was decided that the elf player was in the right, and all the dwarf models were knocked to the ground and subsequently crushed. Now we are left with 2/5 of our players feeling cheated and who have claimed to be "losing interest in SBG" and are considering to leave the sport as Rohan and Elves are OP. This leaves me feeling quite stunned. Every day, I read on the forums how Rohan is so difficult to run an all mounted force, and one of the weaker factions, and how elves are also quite difficult to run, but with their preformance today, and how easily they crushed and ruled the game, I am wondering where things went so wrong. I don't think we are playing the game wrong, but why do Rohan and Elves feel so powerful? |
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| Author: | hithero [ Tue Jun 19, 2012 5:34 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: SBG Rules Questions |
You have the rules correct, sounds like there a few sore losers in your group. One other thing, at the UKGT last weekend they rules that Thranduil could be resisted on a six. I expect the rulebook has it wrong in that Thranduils crown should be worded more like the Goblin climb ability in that the roll is always successful as if a six was thrown. Dont know why the players are getting in a fuss over Rohan, the cavalry rules apply to every army that has them 
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| Author: | whafrog [ Tue Jun 19, 2012 5:42 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: SBG Rules Questions |
Battalia wrote: Rohan Question: A rider of rohan is charged by an ork. The phase then moves to Rohan who moves another RoR to charge said ork. In the combat phase, Rohan rolls 3 dice. 1 for the charged RoR, and 2 for the charging RoR. If Rohan is victorious, he rolls 6 dice for the wound. Is this correct? Yes Battalia wrote: Elf Question: ...The dwarf player called he would use Gimli to resist the magic, but the elf player said you couldn't as no dice had been cast... That's my interpretation. Battalia wrote: Now we are left with 2/5 of our players feeling cheated and who have claimed to be "losing interest in SBG" and are considering to leave the sport as Rohan and Elves are OP. Wow, talk about sore losers. Maybe they should ask themselves "what did I do wrong?" I think a lot of players just expect the models to do the work for them (which is one reason to take Dwarves or Uruk hai). And Nature's Wrath isn't always that successful, I had a Stormcaller cast three in a row on 10 enemy models, and my elves did not kill a single Morannon in all three turns. Next time give them the Elves and Rohan to play, see how they do. If they lose...time to take a look in the mirror rather than blaming the game. Battalia wrote: This leaves me feeling quite stunned. Every day, I read on the forums how Rohan is so difficult to run an all mounted force, and one of the weaker factions, and how elves are also quite difficult to run, but with their preformance today, and how easily they crushed and ruled the game, I am wondering where things went so wrong. I don't think we are playing the game wrong, but why do Rohan and Elves feel so powerful? Luck, and poor enemy tactics. |
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| Author: | Draugluin [ Tue Jun 19, 2012 6:23 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: SBG Rules Questions |
Any army that can use cavalry has the same potential as Rohan. That's just how the rules are. If they don't like it, then they can charge ALL of the enemy cavalry or bring some cavalry of their own. |
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| Author: | SuicidalMarsbar [ Wed Jun 20, 2012 8:19 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: SBG Rules Questions |
Rohan are the weakest army in many gamers opinion. Would i be right in guessing that the sore losers in question did little preparation and just made their forces on the spot expecting it to win? That's what alot of people in my group do and it never works out. |
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| Author: | GothmogtheWerewolf [ Wed Jun 20, 2012 11:11 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: SBG Rules Questions |
Battalia wrote: Rohan Question: A rider of rohan is charged by an ork. The phase then moves to Rohan who moves another RoR to charge said ork. In the combat phase, Rohan rolls 3 dice. 1 for the charged RoR, and 2 for the charging RoR. If Rohan is victorious, he rolls 6 dice for the wound. Is this correct? Also, remember that 2 Riders or Rohan cost considerably more pts than a single Orc Warrior, so you'd expect the Rohirrim to win this anyway. |
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| Author: | SuicidalMarsbar [ Thu Jun 21, 2012 8:19 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: SBG Rules Questions |
I have a sort of relted question: Let's say a rider of rohan charges an orc, and is subsequently charged by another orc, does the rider get the charge bonuses against the orc he initially charged or are all of the bonuses cancelled because of the other orcs interference? |
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| Author: | Elessar Telcontar [ Thu Jun 21, 2012 9:41 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: SBG Rules Questions |
SuicidalMarsbar wrote: I have a sort of relted question: Let's say a rider of rohan charges an orc, and is subsequently charged by another orc, does the rider get the charge bonuses against the orc he initially charged or are all of the bonuses cancelled because of the other orcs interference? The rider still gets the bonuses. The charging bonuses are only lost if counter-charged by other cavalry. |
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| Author: | rififivos [ Thu Jun 21, 2012 9:44 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: SBG Rules Questions |
Actually the bunuses aren't cancelled but on the contrary are carried over to second orc as well. As long as the mounted model is not counter-charged by another mounted model then all the charge bonuses should also aply to any foot model that counter-charged. PS. beated by Elessar 
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| Author: | Jobu [ Thu Jun 21, 2012 6:29 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: SBG Rules Questions |
hithero wrote: You have the rules correct, sounds like there a few sore losers in your group. One other thing, at the UKGT last weekend they rules that Thranduil could be resisted on a six. I expect the rulebook has it wrong in that Thranduils crown should be worded more like the Goblin climb ability in that the roll is always successful as if a six was thrown. I am not so sure, there is a big difference between a special rule and a spell. I am trying to think of another example of an auto cast, the only one that I can currently think of is the harbringer or ancient evil rule". Those special rules are similar to drain courage. No way to resist them because they are special rules. Any other auto casts? If thranduils ability had been called something else besides "cast natures wrath", like "6 inch hell zone for your opponent", would there still be this argument about using will to resist? Also, why should the value be a six? what is the lowest value that NW is always cast? Is it 4? Should we use that instead? The problem I see is related to normal casting, if the opponent resists you can always cast again the next turn. Thranduil is not a spelll caster so he can not cast again. While it seems logical and I tend to fall into the camp of resisting like a six had been cast, is it the correct way to go about it? |
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| Author: | Draugluin [ Thu Jun 21, 2012 8:34 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: SBG Rules Questions |
Well, it says that he counts as casting Nature's Wrath, right? Which means it's a special rule that lets him cast a spell, and spells can be resisted, right? Harbinger of Evil is a special rule that has nothing to do with a spell. |
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| Author: | Jobu [ Fri Jun 22, 2012 10:07 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: SBG Rules Questions |
Draugluin wrote: Well, it says that he counts as casting Nature's Wrath, right? Which means it's a special rule that lets him cast a spell, and spells can be resisted, right? Harbinger of Evil is a special rule that has nothing to do with a spell. His crown is a special rule, not a spell. "Counts as "a spell is not the same thing as cast a spell. Thranduil does not use will nor roll any dice, therefore if one is to resist this special rule how and what would be a fair way of doing so. Can you think of any other special rule that can be resisted that did not involve will or casting dice? |
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| Author: | Rozinante [ Sat Jun 23, 2012 9:52 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: SBG Rules Questions |
[quote="His crown is a special rule, not a spell. "Counts as a spell" is not the same thing as cast a spell. .[/quote] I agree---and that is the concensus: Thranduil's Nature's Wrath can't be resisted. But some ref at the UKGT ruled that it could be resisted on a six. How seriously do we need to take that? Was that a 'house rule' for that tournement only, like the old Spider Queen tournement rule under LOME? We rely on forum concensus for most finepoint rulings because---unless overriden by a FAQ---we don't have any higher authority to tell us the Creator's intentions. Short of one of the original designers weighing in, do we have any higher authority than an official referee at the UKGT? I like the interpretation as it is. But...can we ignore a onetime ref call that is not listed in a FAQ? Could that ref have it wrong? I've seen a very experienced ref flip-flop with good arguments...the 'special rule vs spell' argument is the best yet, and maybe not considered by the ref? |
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| Author: | SuicidalMarsbar [ Sat Jun 23, 2012 12:13 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: SBG Rules Questions |
Consider it a non-resistable spell. Everyone on TLA has said that the refs at the gt don't really know the rules very well and most agree that Thranduil's crown is non-resistable, as it should be. |
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| Author: | theavenger001 [ Sat Jun 23, 2012 8:36 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: SBG Rules Questions |
As written I think it is a non-resistable special rule/spell/whatever you want to call it. I also think that balance-wise it should count as if a six was rolled to cast, but that's not how it's written. |
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| Author: | Draugluin [ Sun Jun 24, 2012 2:17 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: SBG Rules Questions |
SuicidalMarsbar wrote: Consider it a non-resistable spell. Everyone on TLA has said that the refs at the gt don't really know the rules very well and most agree that Thranduil's crown is non-resistable, as it should be. So you'll choose to listen to people on a forum instead of refs at a convention? While I agree that as it is written, it's unresistable, I think it was meant to be resistable. |
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| Author: | SuicidalMarsbar [ Sun Jun 24, 2012 1:08 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: SBG Rules Questions |
Yes, TLA is full of people who repetively go to the tournaments and often win them. It is undisputable that they know the rules better than anyone. |
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| Author: | GothmogtheWerewolf [ Sun Jun 24, 2012 7:18 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: SBG Rules Questions |
Draugluin wrote: While I agree that as it is written, it's unresistable, I think it was meant to be resistable. You do? I think the intention is for it to be unresistabble, since it isn't a spell. |
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| Author: | Spud14 [ Mon Jun 25, 2012 1:53 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: SBG Rules Questions |
SuicidalMarsbar wrote: Yes, TLA is full of people who repetively go to the tournaments and often win them. It is undisputable that they know the rules better than anyone. I think it very disputable. If the argument is that by frequently attending the tournaments they learn the rules very well, the only bit you learn from a tournament over a rulebook or a game with friends is the rule interpretations of the tournament refs, so they are still a lower authority than a GW tournament ref as they are just repeating a refs ruling? Plus the tla debates on rulings like elven cloaks and volley fire shows that they sometimes miss the whole point of a rule to focus on the wording (when it suits them only of course). |
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| Author: | hithero [ Mon Jun 25, 2012 6:19 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: SBG Rules Questions |
SuicidalMarsbar wrote: Yes, TLA is full of people who repetively go to the tournaments and often win them. It is undisputable that they know the rules better than anyone. Also full of playtesters (when GW still had them) who have been in the LOTR hobby longer than any ref at a tourney. |
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