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Monster hurl nicely balanced
http://test.one-ring.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=49&t=25317		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  whafrog [ Tue Feb 19, 2013 7:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Monster hurl nicely balanced
This isn't a question, more an observation, and wondering if people agree.

I've finally had a couple of occasions to use hurl and I feel it's nicely balanced, not OP. This is exactly what a monster should do (didn't have a chance to use barge yet). I was a bit concerned about it...people complaining how you could take out lines of cavalry, etc, but that is part of what makes it so great. It helps add to the skirmishy nature of the game by forcing different, less formation-driven, tactics.

In any case, I managed to get Treebeard tossing around some wargs, and not one of them died, but I did slow down the pack by knocking a bunch over, which meant my elves could deal with the rest piecemeal. Then I finally threw one into the Spider Queen...the extra impact of an obstacle or an S6+ target makes a big difference.

Anyway, I have to give kudos to the GW team for coming up with this, it's a hoot, yet retains the same basic flattened power level as the rest of the game.
Author:  SuicidalMarsbar [ Tue Feb 19, 2013 7:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Monster hurl nicely balanced
You are literally my hero. I agree with everything above, the new rules all add a great level of flavor to the game.
Author:  Damian [ Tue Feb 19, 2013 7:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Monster hurl nicely balanced
Quote:
It helps add to the skirmishy nature of the game by forcing different, less formation-driven, tactics.

This is exactly why I like it.
Quote:
people complaining how you could take out lines of cavalry

I think there's a misconception that prone cavalry are automatically dismounted, but that is not supported by the rules. In fact, if you read the rules for cavalry jumping a gap and failing it says they are placed prone at the bottom of the gap but must make a further roll to see if they're thrown.
Author:  whafrog [ Tue Feb 19, 2013 10:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Monster hurl nicely balanced
I think that means they have to make a roll on the Thrown Rider chart, and the only reason to do that is if they're dismounted. On a 1 they might take damage, anything else and they land on their feet...dismounted.

Or am I missing something?
Author:  Draugluin [ Tue Feb 19, 2013 10:53 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Monster hurl nicely balanced
That portion has VERY specific wording. If you roll a 1 to jump, roll a another dice: on a 1 you suffer a Knocked Flying result. If you roll anything else, you stay on your mount, you just didn't make the jump.
Author:  whafrog [ Tue Feb 19, 2013 11:06 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Monster hurl nicely balanced
Damian wrote:
Quote:
people complaining how you could take out lines of cavalry

I think there's a misconception that prone cavalry are automatically dismounted, but that is not supported by the rules. In fact, if you read the rules for cavalry jumping a gap and failing it says they are placed prone at the bottom of the gap but must make a further roll to see if they're thrown.


Now I'm not sure what Jump has to do with it. Wouldn't it be more like being charged by a Monstrous Mount (automatically Knocked to the Ground)?
Author:  Draugluin [ Tue Feb 19, 2013 11:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Monster hurl nicely balanced
The rulebook never makes a mention about cavalry models getting knocked prone being thrown.
Author:  Dr Grant [ Tue Feb 19, 2013 11:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Monster hurl nicely balanced
Heya, as a little note on all this thrown rider stuff.

We discovered at the Throne of Skulls that all this strange Thrown Rider ambiguity is down to editorial intrusion on the rules for cavalry rather than intentional changes on the part of the games designers. Once the issue was spotted it was very late in the process and not every change/mistake was spotted.

Essentially this means that any of these odd issues with non-thrown riders are mistakes. I don't have my book to hand but I know that for Sorcerous Blast and/or Hurl (def Hurl by the sound of this thread) and maybe some other things it doesn't specify that the riders are thrown. They absolutely should be.

Essentially, the ruling was if a cavalry model is knocked prone then the rider is thrown.

I know this won't convince some people and some people will stick to the exact wording of the rulebook as written but that's the word from the horses mouth (pardon the pun).

Use this info in your games as you wish.
Author:  whafrog [ Tue Feb 19, 2013 11:13 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Monster hurl nicely balanced
Dr Grant wrote:
I know this won't convince some people and some people will stick to the exact wording of the rulebook as written but that's the word from the horses mouth (pardon the pun).


Good enough for me, that's how we've been playing it anyway. But hopefully they'll FAQ it soon.
Author:  Damian [ Wed Feb 20, 2013 12:29 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Monster hurl nicely balanced
Oops, I meant 'Leap' not 'Jump'. Models that fail to leap fall to the bottom of the gap, suffer falling damage and are placed prone. Cavalry then roll a further dice and on a 1 they are dismounted. So, you can have a prone cavalry model that is not dismounted if you fail a leap test...........at the moment.
I would not be surprised if Hurl and SB get FAQd to throw riders like Monstrous Cavalry do, or they may just stick an errata about prone cavalry in the cavalry rules section.
Author:  Beowulf03809 [ Wed Feb 20, 2013 1:54 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Monster hurl nicely balanced
I would imagine any 'prone cavalry' or 'knocked down' cavalry will result in a Thrown Rider roll. I don't recall OR SBG having any situation where your cav could be knocked down/fall down/lay down and still get up and ride and that would be a pretty big change for it not to have been discovered.

Very surprised it didn't make it in to FAQ 1, but maybe with the rumored FAQ 2 coming out...
Author:  SidTheSloth [ Wed Feb 20, 2013 7:29 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Monster hurl nicely balanced
I am inclined to agree, The hurling rules did seem very good when I played with them...
Author:  SuicidalMarsbar [ Wed Feb 20, 2013 8:52 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Monster hurl nicely balanced
The best kind of hurl is throwing your own men with the great goblin!
Author:  Dr Grant [ Wed Feb 20, 2013 11:33 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Monster hurl nicely balanced
Beowulf03809 wrote:
I would imagine any 'prone cavalry' or 'knocked down' cavalry will result in a Thrown Rider roll.


Yes, this is what's intended, just like in the old rules. Like I've mentioned in a couple of threads today/yesterday, it also makes the most sense and is clearly what was intended.

Hopefully they'll FAQ this simply with a sentence not unlike Beowolf's:

"Any 'prone cavalry' or 'knocked down' cavalry must make a Thrown Rider roll"

Unfortunately, it's not what's written in the rulebook so I can see some people turning up and arguing that their knights are stapled to their horses :roll:

P.S. I'm saying all this as a Rohan player who stubbornly takes all mounted armies fairly often, it's not in my interests but it is the truth :)
Author:  D0Cdeath [ Wed Feb 20, 2013 3:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Monster hurl nicely balanced
We played with for the first time with the new hurl rule a few days ago , and I never even thought about making a roll on the 'thrown rider chart '.

In my opinion when picked up by a balrog and thrown across the battle field how could you possible stay on your horse ?. Besides that , when I first read about the new hurl Action i did think what an OP move mainly for evil (i play gondor) but after seeing it in action even though it was my troops getting thrown about I really enjoyed it . It adds a new realism to the game :lol: (I know trolls and Balrog's don't really exists , do they ?)Plus except the unlucky WOMT that got hurled it didn't kill one man.
Author:  Beowulf03809 [ Wed Feb 20, 2013 3:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Monster hurl nicely balanced
Rolling on the thrown rider chart doesn't give you a chance NOT to be thrown, it just give an option of how bad it is when you are thrown.
Author:  D0Cdeath [ Wed Feb 20, 2013 4:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Monster hurl nicely balanced
Yer I know , it's my bad gramma I've edited the post. Basically I can't understand how anyone could think that after been hurled you could still stay on your horse?
Author:  Damian [ Wed Feb 20, 2013 4:58 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Monster hurl nicely balanced
I don't understand how you could get up and continue fighting if you've been thrown 40 feet through the air by a Balrog, and I don't understand why monsters don't knock people off horses with their normal attacks (if Treebeard punches you in the face you're not staying on your horse) but rules and reality are frequently two different things. Sometimes a rule may seem counter-intuitive or illogical, but it is that way for game balance.
Author:  whafrog [ Wed Feb 20, 2013 6:13 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Monster hurl nicely balanced
Damian wrote:
...and I don't understand why monsters don't knock people off horses with their normal attacks ...


I've thought the same, S6 should get cavalry or monstrous mount knockdown...but I rationalize it by saying they're too lumbering to really knock you down, you just don't want to get hit. But it doesn't bother me anymore, as I think the new rules add a more dynamic element than a knockdown would, and both the new rules + knockdown would be too much (requiring point changes).
Author:  BlackMist [ Wed Feb 20, 2013 6:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Monster hurl nicely balanced
I don't think monsters knocking people down is necessary. If you get hit by treebeard, sure you won't stand up but you wouldn't be alive either, so the knockdown part is omitted by removing the model anyway. If you didn't get hit you survive and stand. Cavalry can knock you accidentally.

As for cavalry knocked down... I can see it both ways. I always found it stupid to remove the horse if still alive, he can't just disappear.
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