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Shooting spearmen + defending an elevated position
http://test.one-ring.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=49&t=25484		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  SuicidalMarsbar [ Sun Mar 10, 2013 11:40 pm ]
Post subject:  Shooting spearmen + defending an elevated position
So in our game today we looked up the rules regarding shooting spearmen who are supporting enemy troops in a fight and since now spearmen are worded as being 'part of the combat', we came to the conclusion that we couldn't target them without risking friendly deaths, was this right (page references would be nice)

Also, what happens if a model moves to the edge of their elevated position, with an enemy below them, but the enemy below them is within an inch of the defenders current control zone, but too close to the elevated position for the 'degender' to climb down and fight them. Let's say the model on the low ground is an archer who is happy to sit below and shoot, is there anyway for the elevated model to actually get into combat, or do the 'defending an elevated position' rules make it so they're already fighting?

Thanks guys :)
Author:  Thermo [ Mon Mar 11, 2013 12:14 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Shooting spearmen + defending an elevated position
This came up in our last game so keen to hear the answer on this...
Author:  whafrog [ Mon Mar 11, 2013 1:01 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Shooting spearmen + defending an elevated position
Wrt shooting spear support, I don't think anything has changed, it's just that the new wording sounds vague. After all, there are limits to what the spear supporter can contribute, and if you win the Duel you can't target the spear supporter for wounds.

So shoot them, please. :)

Wrt elevated positions: not sure from your description, but it sounds like the "attacker" in this case is the guy on top who is moving inside the control zone of the guy below. If he has enough movement to actually reach the model below, IMHO then he should be able to fight and still get the elevated position bonus. The archer should have either climbed up to hold the position, or backed off to get out of the potential control zone.
Author:  SuicidalMarsbar [ Mon Mar 11, 2013 8:13 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Shooting spearmen + defending an elevated position
The guy below was not entirely in the potential control zone of the guy above, but there wasn't enough room for the other dude to climb down either. We eventually decided that the lower guy will just move back a tad and let the other bloke charge him normally. We really didn't feel that the defending rules could apply in the situation so that was the best alternative.
Author:  Lord_of_the_nine [ Mon Mar 11, 2013 1:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Shooting spearmen + defending an elevated position
Sorry for being off topic but reading this thread about spearmen a question came up to my mind:if a model supported by two pikemen loses the combat do they all go back 1 inch or the model is considered trapped?
Author:  whafrog [ Mon Mar 11, 2013 3:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Shooting spearmen + defending an elevated position
Lord_of_the_nine wrote:
Sorry for being off topic but reading this thread about spearmen a question came up to my mind:if a model supported by two pikemen loses the combat do they all go back 1 inch or the model is considered trapped?


Depends. It's described on p41 of the Hobbit rules. A model not in a Fight can make way (in any direction) for a model that loses a Duel so that the losing model can back away. A model can't make way for a model making way, so if your first supporting model can't move aside for the losing model, the losing model is trapped. The second supporting model is never moved.

That's why pike blocks or tightly clustered groups of warriors can turn into bad news, at least for the guys in the middle. And having priority lets you take advantage of these situations.
Author:  Beowulf03809 [ Mon Mar 11, 2013 3:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Shooting spearmen + defending an elevated position
The model directly in combat needs to back away 1" if he loses. The model directly supporting and any other friendly models directly blocking him from doing so "make way", but as far as I know you cannot "make way" for someone else trying to "make way". Keep in mind when you "make way" this could mean backward or just stepping off to the side a little so the looser can back up the full 1". There is nothing can remember from the OR version of SBG that says "make way" movements have to be directly away from the combat, only that the looser must back up directly away. If the friendly models around him are not able to "make way" and allow the combatant to back up then he is considered trapped.

This may sound confusing but it does simplify things if you just think about it.

Enemy / \ Combatant <----- Supporter Dude

The Combatant loses the Fight and needs to back up. If Supporter can step to the side and let Combatant come back 1” then you’re all set. If Supporter can’t go left or right then you’re trapped because Dude is not going to “make way” for Supporter.
Author:  Goldman25 [ Mon Mar 11, 2013 4:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Shooting spearmen + defending an elevated position
To answer both the spearmen and the pike question: you can shoot the spearmen and pikemen still because they aren't directly in combat, and I'd say the pikemen would both back up if they can. Depends on what you and your opponent agree on.
Author:  SouthernDunedain [ Mon Mar 11, 2013 5:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Shooting spearmen + defending an elevated position
models cannot make way for models already making way - hence the risk with pike blocks. The middle pikes can move sideways (if possible) but the back pikes may not move. page 41 in the new hobbit rulebook.
Author:  whafrog [ Mon Mar 11, 2013 6:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Shooting spearmen + defending an elevated position
Goldman25 wrote:
I'd say the pikemen would both back up if they can.


You can say whatever you like, but that's not the rule :)

Beowulf03809 wrote:
The model directly supporting and any other friendly models directly blocking him from doing so "make way",


It sounds like you're saying more than one model can make way if they are directly in the way of the defeated model (and not having to account for each other's movement), but per the rules on p41, only one model can make way. If that model can't make "enough" way, no models can, and the defeated model is trapped.
Author:  Lord_of_the_nine [ Mon Mar 11, 2013 7:13 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Shooting spearmen + defending an elevated position
whafrog wrote:
The second supporting model is never moved.

This answers my question.
Much appreciated
Author:  Beowulf03809 [ Mon Mar 11, 2013 8:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Shooting spearmen + defending an elevated position
whafrog wrote:
...per the rules on p41, only one model can make way. If that model can't make "enough" way, no models can, and the defeated model is trapped.


Thanks for the clarification and citation. I wasn't 100% sure so was purposefully vague on that point in my post :lol: What I did want to point out was that it doesn't necessarily have to be a 'supporting' model that can "make way". Any friendly model around the combatant can move if needed. Without a copy of the new rules, and not remembering this specific point from the classic SBG, I didn't want to say specifically one way or another as to the number.
Author:  whafrog [ Tue Mar 12, 2013 4:31 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Shooting spearmen + defending an elevated position
Beowulf03809 wrote:
What I did want to point out was that it doesn't necessarily have to be a 'supporting' model that can "make way". Any friendly model around the combatant can move if needed.


Good point, so long as it's only the one model.
Author:  Damian [ Tue Mar 12, 2013 1:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Shooting spearmen + defending an elevated position
A diagram would be more helpful for the elevated position. How high was the elevation and could the guy on the top actually see the guy at the bottom at the start of his move (if not then he can't charge anyway)?
Author:  SuicidalMarsbar [ Tue Mar 12, 2013 7:48 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Shooting spearmen + defending an elevated position
Damian wrote:
A diagram would be more helpful for the elevated position. How high was the elevation and could the guy on the top actually see the guy at the bottom at the start of his move (if not then he can't charge anyway)?


The elevation of the position was the scaffolding platoform from efgt. He could see the guy, but the guy was about half an inch away from the platform, so technically the elevated guy couldn't be in his control zone, or charge him due to the lack of for his own bass, and vice versa.
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