The One Ring
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Replacing hand weapons/special strikes topic
http://test.one-ring.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=49&t=27481		 Page 1 of 5
Author:  LordoftheBrownRing [ Thu Jan 16, 2014 8:14 am ]
Post subject:  Replacing hand weapons/special strikes topic
So in what manner can you replace hand weapons. I know for example, you have piercing strike for axes, and then I have hunter orc models, and wood elves. Their profiles dont say sword of anything, so can I just put an axe on my models and theyre legal?

I currently have a hunter orc with a sword and an axe. I plan on doing more.
Author:  SouthernDunedain [ Thu Jan 16, 2014 9:11 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Replacing hand weapons
You can do that. Incredible cheesy though and not really in the spirit of the game. Nothing to stop you though. Remember models can only have one hand weapon unless specified. So no mordor orcs with sword and axe. Hunter orcs are alright tho because of their many blades rule.
Author:  Dr Grant [ Thu Jan 16, 2014 9:28 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Replacing hand weapons
I wrote this a few months ago for another thread but seeing as it's relevant here I'll just copy and paste my thoughts:

It's one of those things where the intention of the rules is clear.

The rule was introduced to add spice to individual combats and make you interact with your models more by looking at what they're armed with, not to encourage everyone to glue axes onto the backs of all their models.

The FAQ states that if you cannot see which hand weapon a model is armed with then it cannot make a special strike. Lets look at Moria goblins, the point of this rule is that the sword armed models have an advantage over the bow/spear armed models.

The intention was clearly not to now go and grab all your warriors of Minas Tirith, cut their swords off and glue axes on. It really comes down to what you're trying to achieve, my feral Uruk Hai come with swords, they'd be better if I put an axe in each hand but I won't as it's clearly against the spirit of the rules, you could do the same with hunter orcs and benefit from their many blades rule AND a Piercing Strike but in doing so you're clearly abusing the rules.

I think you can see the intention of the games design team in the new DOS supplement where Warriors of Dale, Laketown, Gundabad orcs, Gundabad orc captains etc. are all specifically described as having a 'sword' rather than a 'hand weapon' this is clearly there to stop people chopping all the daggers off Laketown Warriors and giving them all axes.

If you want to make a really cool unique Uruk captain conversion then you should, of course, be encouraged to model them with a staff, flail, axe or whatever you want but just gluing axes onto the backs of all your Wood Elves is pure cheese and abusing the intention of the rules.
Author:  Coenus Scaldingus [ Thu Jan 16, 2014 11:13 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Replacing hand weapons
Sadly, neither the rulebook nor the current FAQ factors in the possibility of conversions. Looking at the models to determine the special strikes they should have, does not exclude altering that model to make it look different and thus give it different special strikes. Suggested having this clarified in a new FAQ, but who knows when we'll get that. My interpretation of the rules would indeed be that the original model should be the basis of the rules, and any changes are simply aesthetical and do not influence its rules. In that way, you can make your army look just like you want it to, but without taking advantage of a loophole/giving the impression that you try to do so.
Author:  Dr Grant [ Thu Jan 16, 2014 3:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Replacing hand weapons
Completely agree, before the rules came out you never saw Wood Elves or Warriors of Minas Tirith with axes, no-one wants to do it for fluff, it's all to exploit the loophole.

Anyone who does it is a special kind of naughty and is not my friend.
Author:  legion [ Thu Jan 16, 2014 3:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Replacing hand weapons
I personally loved how the weapons rules made every race more unique. If you just cut and glue new weapons, then all of that uniqueness is lost. I personally would hate playing against someone who did this.
Author:  JamesR [ Thu Jan 16, 2014 6:57 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Replacing hand weapons
Dr Grant wrote:

Anyone who does it is a special kind of naughty and is not my friend.


I'd have to second that.

I don't plan on doing this but what about for generic captains? I think I'd have less of a problem with someone adding a little more personality to their MT Captain by giving him an axe for example as opposed to the rank and file soldiers
Author:  Hill-Troll [ Thu Jan 16, 2014 8:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Replacing hand weapons
Changing weapons for captains is good, but elves with axes or hammers? NOOOOOO!
Author:  Tezzy [ Thu Jan 16, 2014 8:57 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Replacing hand weapons
The only case where I would complain is if the model in question never had a hand weapon. For example: Moria Goblins, when upgraded with a spear, do not have swords by default. Similarly, giant spiders do not have axes.

However outside of that I really don't mind! If my opponent had an army of warriors of Minas Tirinth with axes converted, I think it would be a cool conversion. Personally my goblins benefit highly from swords, but I have also converted two hammer weapons, a couple axes, and a couple club weapons.

The way I look at it is, there aren't enough players playing SBG anyways. If someone wants to play competitively, they can. But they won't find many others. For me I just play for fun, and its fun to have options. Personally I've loved the idea of models with unique two handed weapons, like axes or hammers. I'd love to see some more conversions! The base models for the plastic kits are boring anyways...
Author:  black1blade [ Thu Jan 16, 2014 9:08 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Replacing hand weapons
What about models that don't have a visible weapon. If my woodelf is paying a point for an elven blade I deserve the extra utility of having an axe as well.
Author:  SouthernDunedain [ Thu Jan 16, 2014 9:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Replacing hand weapons
no you don't. The elven blade is your hand weapon. All models should have wargear correctly modelled so if you are wanting elf blades, you should use models that have elf blades on their person; either on their person in a sheath or in their hands.
Author:  LordoftheBrownRing [ Fri Jan 17, 2014 10:08 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Replacing hand weapons
Personally, the way I see this rule, if it makes sense in the LOTR universe, I wouldnt want my opponent to cry about it. For example, this is what I have been making....and I dont see how anyone would have a problem with it. Its realistic considering hunter orcs are a bunch of randoms with no real armory to choose from.


The are my hunter orcs with various two handed axes. The list says 'two handed weapon' so pretty much, that means to me, that you can add any weapon, to possibly do any strike including a flail, sword, mace, axe, and club.
Image

And here are my regular two weaponed hunter orcs. I think not only are they cool, but nobody should have a problem with it

Image



By the way, since were on the topic.....what weapons do these two technically have, because honestly, its debatable. The orc seems to have a spear of course, but not exactly.

As for the hunter orc.....??? Could be a club, mace, AND pick in my mind.....

Image

Image


And going along further with what Im saying, of course a man of rohan can have an axe, spear, or sword, but would someone get [word deleted] if they played a guy who modified with a hammer mace or maul to bash? Because yeah, they never had one in the movie, but dont you think someone in their army would use one? Maybe not a whole warband of them, but Id accept 4 or so. Maybe a few more.


Now, for example, Id draw the line at never putting a mace or flail on a uruk, but I know at Isengard, they chopped down trees a lot. So, would someone be mad if you gave one an axe? How about a club? Sounds like a very legit Uruk Hai weapon to me??

As for troops like Hunter Orcs, regular Orcs, men of dunland, etc....I dont see why you cant have a warband with every special strike possible in it.
Author:  Dr Grant [ Fri Jan 17, 2014 10:37 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Replacing hand weapons
It's all down to execution and intent for me.

Orcs have some leeway as you say, the sprue contains a variety of weapons (including axes), it makes a fluffy kind of sense and if you make some nice conversions like you have then I certainly wouldn't have a problem with it (putting an axe on an orc instead of a sword is also robbing them of their feinting advantage so it's got pros and cons).

What I take issue with is the lazy approach, sticking axes on the backs of spear/bow models etc. particularly high fight models who wouldn't want to fight and who are clearly not meant to have axes fluff wise/aesthetically.

Personally, if in doubt I just always go back to the intention of the rules and make my call from there. Rohan warriors have swords and axes on the sprue, if someone converted all their warriors to carry axes it wouldn't bother me, GW and WETA clearly made the decision that axes fit in with the culture of the race. Fighting Uruk Hai don't have axes, they never fight with axes in the films and there's never been an axe on a fighting Uruk Hai model - that to me makes it clear, they're not meant to have axes and converting them to do so is exploiting the rules - particularly as due to their F4 they're less likely to feint so an axe is a bigger advantage to them - that they're not meant to have.

I come back to the point I made earlier, in the 10 years of SBG development before the Hobbit rules, I never saw anyone change all their Fighting Uruk Hai models to carry axes. No-one is doing it for fluff because 'they would be cutting down trees' they're doing it entirely for the in-game advantage - that to me is against the spirit of the rules. Anyone who cuts all the swords off their uruks, replaces them with axes and then tells you they're 'doing it for the fluff' is either lying or in deep deep denial.

As for the models you mention, the orc's carrying a spear and the hunter orc's weapon could be a club or a pick, you decide before the game and tell your opponent.
Author:  mertaal [ Fri Jan 17, 2014 10:53 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Replacing hand weapons
Uruk wargear was mass produced very quickly, and generally speaking they have identical sets of sword/shield combos- even the scouts. The Siege troops all have handy cutlasses that are easy to climb with and helmets designed to repel arrow fire from above. The Berserkers have large two handed swords.

I really don't think there's any lore justification for altering rank and file Uruk war gear from what is depicted on the model. The Isenguard quartermaster didn't ask them if they wanted a sword, axe or cudgel, they were a mass produced army, and just got what was given to them.

I suppose I'd be ok with a Captain or other character model changing the weapon type, particularly as Dr Grant says, if the conversion is a good one, but again, the purpose should be to make an awesome model, not to make a simple weapon swap just to get an in-game advantage.

If someone turned up with a pile of loose weapons and a packet of blue tac I think they'd be asking for a different kind of special strike:

Click to: Show
Image
Author:  hithero [ Fri Jan 17, 2014 12:35 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Replacing hand weapons
Hill-Troll wrote:
Changing weapons for captains is good, but elves with axes or hammers? NOOOOOO!


But according to some guy called Tolkien, Elves do use axes :p
Author:  Hill-Troll [ Fri Jan 17, 2014 6:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Replacing hand weapons
Really? I take everything back! Where did he write that? Also elves with axes work, if the axes are elvish looking, but otherwise the do not in my opinion.
Author:  LordoftheBrownRing [ Sat Jan 18, 2014 12:48 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Replacing hand weapons
Thank you everyone for creative responses. My whole goal was to find out peoples ideas behind it all and why.

One thing though....nobody has really commented on my hunters.


Would everyone be ok with those guys the way they are? I dont think Im abusing anything with them personally.

As a note though, Mertaal and Dr. Grant. I did say I wouldnt be upset if someone put in a few Uruks with axes, but personally, I wouldnt change mine to have axes. Then normal ones are too cool. I like the models the way they are.
Author:  Erunion [ Sat Jan 18, 2014 1:11 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Replacing hand weapons
Like some of the others have stated, I would not have a problem with someone converting a model for background reasons (to make a Captain figure more unique, etc.), however I would frown on swapping out all the hand weapons of your rank-and-file warriors. That seems like it is gaming the system rather than playing in the spirit of the game, which is extremely important to me.

That said, if someone did so, I would not refuse a game with them over something like that. It would make it harder to immerse myself in the game. Cheating is another matter altogether...
Author:  Pandarchon [ Sat Jan 18, 2014 2:05 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Replacing hand weapons
Boromir beat up an urukhai scout with an Axe in the movie
Author:  Hill-Troll [ Sat Jan 18, 2014 2:37 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Replacing hand weapons
LordoftheBrownRing wrote:
Thank you everyone for creative responses. My whole goal was to find out peoples ideas behind it all and why.

One thing though....nobody has really commented on my hunters.


Would everyone be ok with those guys the way they are? I dont think Im abusing anything with them personally.

As a note though, Mertaal and Dr. Grant. I did say I wouldnt be upset if someone put in a few Uruks with axes, but personally, I wouldnt change mine to have axes. Then normal ones are too cool. I like the models the way they are.

I like the two handed axe wielding orcs, but i'm not a big fan of the axe & sword combo.
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