Questions about Spears

DomyHill · **Posted:** Thu Jan 23, 2014 3:48 pm

I've been reading through the rules and I can't find anything that says a mounted model armed with a spear can't support a friendly model in the usual way. I was also surprised to see that in the newest edition of the rules spear armed warriors can support any model (it used to be that a spear armed model could only support a model who's base was smaller than his own). Are both these points correct, I just wondered because they both seem completely illogical.

Also as Gil-galad's spear Aeglos' special rule states it does not follow the usual rules for spears does this mean it can't be used to support (I know that would be pointless but it'd be nice to have the option if say there was no way to get directing into base contact with an enemy)?

Dr Grant · **Joined:** Fri Aug 03, 2012 1:50 pm **Posts:** 1339

1) A model on foot with a spear can support any other model (yep even a Mumak!), there's nothing in the rules to prevent it.

2) Aeglos is a spear, you can use it as a spear like normal (same way you can feint with Anduril)

3) Models on horseback supporting - not so sure about this, I believe the answer's no but I don't have my rulebook to hand. I think there's something about it in there somewhere but would have to check when I get home. If it helps, the way the UK tourney community plays it is that models on horseback can't support so I imagine that must come from the rulebook as otherwise someone would have exploited it by now.

Hope that helps

VictoryGin · **Joined:** Sun Jun 09, 2013 10:05 am **Posts:** 189

I can't see anything in the EFGT rulebook to say cavalry can't support. I don't see why you couldn't, it's just a more expensive spearman with a horse you've paid for but aren't using. What mounted units have spears anyway? Most either have lances or throwing spears.

What unit were you thinking of?

VG

JamesR · **Posted:** Thu Jan 23, 2014 4:37 pm

Dr Grant wrote:

Aeglos is a spear, you can use it as a spear like normal (same way you can feint with Anduril)

I actually don't think it can support, as the entry for Gil-galad specifically says it does not follow the normal rules for spears. So in effect Gil-galad does not have any kind of special strike (if you include supporting within that). But at least he gets the +1 to wound

Dr Grant · **Joined:** Fri Aug 03, 2012 1:50 pm **Posts:** 1339

JamesR wrote:

Dr Grant wrote:

Aeglos is a spear, you can use it as a spear like normal (same way you can feint with Anduril)

I actually don't think it can support, as the entry for Gil-galad specifically says it does not follow the normal rules for spears. So in effect Gil-galad does not have any kind of special strike (if you include supporting within that). But at least he gets the +1 to wound

Yes, thinking about it you may be right, it seems fairly irrelevant to include that phrase if h were able to support. Very odd ruling though, dones't make much sense to me.

And as for the cavalry supporting thing, yes, to be fair maybe the issue is actually that it has never come up as it would apply to so few units.

There's the Harad guys, Serpent Guard I think, with Warspears, there's Gil-Galad on horse (although the above makes that moot), bound to be a few others but they're all troops you wouldn't want supporting so perhaps it just hasn't come up.

Interesting question

JamesR · **Posted:** Thu Jan 23, 2014 4:57 pm

Actually Serpent Riders spears only count as Lances while on horse-back, once they dismount they count as spears. So personally I can't think of a single (regular) spear armed model who can be mounted

tchuck · **Joined:** Tue Feb 26, 2013 10:28 pm **Posts:** 9

While we are on the subject of spear, can a knocked down spearman support other model. I can't find anything in the rulebook that says otherwise. Can anyone find something in the rulebook?

SouthernDunedain · **Posted:** Thu Jan 23, 2014 6:01 pm

citadel guard and rangers of the north can both have spears while mtd

As can Forlong the Fat and Halbarad.

Spears cannot support another model while prone as they arnt technically in base contact.

DomyHill · **Posted:** Thu Jan 23, 2014 7:33 pm

The old One Ring Rulebook stated that a spear armed warrior could only support a friendly model who's base was small than his own. This clause has been completely left out in the Hobbit rulebook. Do you think this was deliberate or just a mistake. The old rules made a lot more sense (being able to spear support a Mumak or Great Eagle is just stupid!).

As for the spear armed mounted warriors there are a few examples: Citadel Guard, Forlong the Fat and Rangers of the North have all be mentioned.

SouthernDunedain · **Posted:** Thu Jan 23, 2014 7:38 pm

DomyHill wrote:

Do you think this was deliberate or just a mistake. The old rules made a lot more sense (being able to spear support a Mumak or Great Eagle is just stupid!).

As for the spear armed mounted warriors there are a few examples: Citadel Guard, Forlong the Fat and Rangers of the North have all be mentioned.

I mentioned those models above :lol:

pretty sure Simon said that it was a done on purpose yet I remember Adam Troke saying that the editing team had deleted whole sections of the book which he had to re-write from memory...so who knows :roll:

maybe in the next FAQ they'll clear it up.

Tezzy · **Joined:** Tue Dec 27, 2011 4:42 am **Posts:** 160

Additionally, Orc Shaman's on Wargs have spears they can support with. I think this is the only model you don't need to convert that has a spear on horseback.

DomyHill · **Posted:** Thu Jan 23, 2014 9:51 pm

Sorry SouthernDunedain, I couldn't be bothered to scroll down to cite you directly!

What about Serpent Riders? Don't they have spears?

GothmogtheWerewolf · **Posted:** Fri Jan 24, 2014 1:40 am

DomyHill wrote:

What about Serpent Riders? Don't they have spears?

They have Haradrim War Spears which count as lances when mounted and spears when on foot.

tchuck · **Joined:** Tue Feb 26, 2013 10:28 pm **Posts:** 9

SouthernDunedain wrote:

Spears cannot support another model while prone as they arnt technically in base contact.

Can you tell me where in the rulebook I can read that?

You can be in base contact with a prone model, as a spear armed non-prone model can support a friendly prone model. (p69 spears -EfGT rulebook).

A supporting spear armed prone model can be in base contact with a friendly model. He could support, adding an attack, but wouldn't be able to make strikes if he won the combat.

DomyHill · **Posted:** Mon Jan 27, 2014 12:39 pm

I can't find anything in the rulebook or FAQs that explicitly bans this. I wouldn't have thought they could make strikes to wound against an enemy as prone models can't make strikes anyway. I don't think this means they can't support a model though.

cereal_theif · **Posted:** Tue Jan 28, 2014 10:31 pm

I'd say if you try to spear support while prone you are trying too hard. There are easier ways to win especially if you are willing to stoop to these levels

Dr Grant · **Joined:** Fri Aug 03, 2012 1:50 pm **Posts:** 1339

This is how I see it:

The rules state that a model armed with a spear can "joint a fight by moving into base contact with a friend..." (p69)

Therefore if a model with a spear started prone it would surely stand up before moving in to support - no issue there.

That means (unless I'm missing something, which is very possible), that this situation is exclusively dealing with times where a model with a spear is supporting a friend and is knocked prone before the fight phase in some manner (Sorcerous Blast, Nature's Wrath, Hurl etc.) Yes?

In these situations, I've always played that, assuming all the models in this fight are knocked prone, the two models who were fighting (base to base) still count as being in combat, roll the Duel as normal and the winner stands up but can't make strikes.

I've also always said that prone supporting models can't support as that seems wrong.

Neither of these points are clear in the rulebook (there are no rules for whether 2 prone models fight or whether prone supporting models fight) but this just feels right to me.

It is also worth considering that "prone models may not charge - they must stand up first" (p29). Whilst supporting with a spear isn't a charge, the phrasing implies that to move into a fight (which is what a supporting model does) the model must be standing up. Not by any means definitive but, as always, I try and think of rules as intended and I don't think they intended prone models to be able to support, definitely one for an FAQ though.

cereal_theif · **Posted:** Wed Jan 29, 2014 5:00 pm

I've always played that if all people in a combat are knocked prone the combat is ended.

Dior · **Posted:** Fri Jan 31, 2014 3:07 am

In the old OR rule book it states pp21 ..
"Whist on the ground .... . He also cannot use any weapon except shields, hand weapons, knives and daggers".

Assuming that intent has not changed... then using a spear from a prone position in a combat or fight would be out of bounds of the rules.

But...

in the new rule book there is no description of use of weapons by a prone model (pp29 THRB) which could possibly leave the option open to crawl 1" to base contact with a friend and support ... .

So if you want to base the argument on the current rules I would suggest you can support from a prone position.

I think this is a shame and is typical of my criticism of the new rule book.. which for all the pages it contains full of pictures and no profiles like he old book.. and to find rules have been truncated unnecessarily...well I think the old rule book was a much better product.

VandalCabbage · **Joined:** Sun Jan 19, 2014 1:12 pm **Posts:** 286

To be fair the old rule book also had a lot of redundancies. The new rule book's lack of clarity seems to me to be focussed around spears, but other things like magic have actually been cleared up more. Add to that the spear rules in some cases make more sense in that profiles affect how powerful the support is (fight and strength are taken into account). It's only the big base small base conflict and prone models which really don't seem to make sense for spears IMO.

Questions about Spears

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