The One Ring :: View topic - Rules lawyering casting Magic in the HSBG

Despite the lack of clause carried over from one edition to another, the Hobbit rules make it extremely clear you can only use magic in your own movement phase, and only when it is the model's turn to move. If you continue to read that section you will find it says the following:

"A model [...] can attempt to use up to one each move phase. He can use the power before he moves, during his move, or at the end of it. A Hero can even use a magical power in the same turn he Charges, or if he doesn't move at all..." (76)

then the lovely tactic of engaging wizards in combat to stop them from using magic would be null and void. What would be the purpose of the no-magic-in-combat clause in the first place if you could just Sorcerous Blast some guy as he charges you? So, as you can see, magic can only be used when the model has the capability to move, either through a Heroic Move, or during your own half of the move phase.

Author:	Michaelc [ Mon Jan 26, 2015 3:18 am ]
Post subject:	Rules lawyering casting Magic in the HSBG
Looking for a quick clarification of the rules concerning WHEN Magic can be used as a situation came up in a game today that due to the ambiguous wording of the new Hobbit manual is not as clear as it should be. In the One Book edition of the rules: "A Hero can employ a magical power in the move phase *when it is the model's turn to move.*" In the hobbit book however: "A model [...] can attempt to use up to one each move phase." The phrase "when it is the model's turn to move." having been dropped between editions. Please tell me that wasn't intentional? The reason being is because as written, there's nothing in the HSBG rules stating a model can't cast spells freely in his opponent's movement phase provided he isn't engaged in combat.

Author:	Demonforge [ Mon Jan 26, 2015 5:59 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Rules lawyering casting Magic in the HSBG
Despite the lack of clause carried over from one edition to another, the Hobbit rules make it extremely clear you can only use magic in your own movement phase, and only when it is the model's turn to move. If you continue to read that section you will find it says the following: "A model [...] can attempt to use up to one each move phase. He can use the power before he moves, during his move, or at the end of it. A Hero can even use a magical power in the same turn he Charges, or if he doesn't move at all..." (76) Notice the section in bold. It states the Hero uses the power at some point in his move (even if he doesn't even move). So unless you find some way to move in your enemy's move phase (such as through a Heroic Move) then he may only cast a power during your part of the move phase, when the model would be valid to move. If it were as you suggested, then the lovely tactic of engaging wizards in combat to stop them from using magic would be null and void. What would be the purpose of the no-magic-in-combat clause in the first place if you could just Sorcerous Blast some guy as he charges you? So, as you can see, magic can only be used when the model has the capability to move, either through a Heroic Move, or during your own half of the move phase. Also note that effects such as a Barrow Wight's Fell Lights or the Compel magical power do not let you cast while under their effects, even though you count as moving...though many things such as those have built in clauses that prevent certain, if not all, complex actions and/or place the model under your opponent's control, so such things would not be capable of happening anyways.

Author:	Dr Grant [ Mon Jan 26, 2015 12:43 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Rules lawyering casting Magic in the HSBG
Demonforge's thorough answer above is entirely correct. You cast a spell as your spellcaster moves.

Author:	Michaelc [ Mon Jan 26, 2015 5:56 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Rules lawyering casting Magic in the HSBG
Demonforge wrote: If it were as you suggested, It wasn't my suggestion, and I don't disagree with your interpretation, but I do disagree that the Hobbit rules make it "extremely clear" to new players. Demonforge wrote: Despite the lack of clause carried over from one edition to another, the Hobbit rules make it extremely clear you can only use magic in your own movement phase, and only when it is the model's turn to move. If you continue to read that section you will find it says the following: "A model [...] can attempt to use up to one each move phase. He can use the power before he moves, during his move, or at the end of it. A Hero can even use a magical power in the same turn he Charges, or if he doesn't move at all..." (76) I did read that section before posting - and you'll note it says "BEFORE he moves" not "AT THE START of his move" The latter would be "extremely clear", the former again is subject to interpretation. Quote: then the lovely tactic of engaging wizards in combat to stop them from using magic would be null and void. What would be the purpose of the no-magic-in-combat clause in the first place if you could just Sorcerous Blast some guy as he charges you? So, as you can see, magic can only be used when the model has the capability to move, either through a Heroic Move, or during your own half of the move phase. Again that doesn't really make it "extremely clear" as you imply. First, numerous long established principles in the game were deliberately changed in the Hobbit. Previously viable tactics HAVE been rendered null and void, deliberately, by GW. For example sacrificial charging expensive monsters with cheap fodder to keep them tied up is much less effective due to the brutal power attacks. Second - an ability to cast spells in your opponent's movement phase would not invalidate the no-magic in combat clause - Wasting a sorcerous blast at the model about to charge you vs not casting at all MAY not be the most effective use of your 1 spell per turn Even inferred arguments about what is logical therefore must be intended fail as far as GW goes - look at the rules for spear support - again a sentence dropped (base size) and replaced by the phrase "any friendly model". Regardless of how retarded it is for a spearman to run behind charging cavalry to support it or a tiny goblin supporting a towering Balrog, both are apparently now legal. Again I don't disagree with your interpretation of the rules but AS WRITTEN in the Hobbit, I would not blame new players for thinking different.

Author:	theavenger001 [ Mon Jan 26, 2015 9:37 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Rules lawyering casting Magic in the HSBG
As I see it, it could be interpreted as Michaelc has put it. I also see that Michaelc is not trying to argue that this is the way it should be played, but rather that it should be FAQ'd so that it is perfectly clear that the way we play right now is the correct way.

The One Ring http://test.one-ring.co.uk/

Rules lawyering casting Magic in the HSBG http://test.one-ring.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=49&t=30307	Page 1 of 1

Author:	Stormcrow [ Tue Jan 27, 2015 1:24 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Rules lawyering casting Magic in the HSBG
I don't see how the rule books wording can be any clearer on this matter. It's probably one of the clearest rules in there, why so much confusion?

Author:	Dr Grant [ Tue Jan 27, 2015 2:03 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Rules lawyering casting Magic in the HSBG
I've played in an awful lot of tournaments with an awful lot of players (both veterans and new faces) and this issue has never come up, that says to me that the rulebook makes it more than clear enough. I think this has run its course guys, the correct ruling has been explained. It's more than clear enough and any claims that it needs to be FAQd or 'fixed' somehow are just complicating what is a pretty simple rule. Lets not start going round in circles.

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