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Barricade rules - Elevated Positions
http://test.one-ring.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=49&t=34117		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  Aldaron [ Tue Jul 09, 2019 1:18 am ]
Post subject:  Barricade rules - Elevated Positions
Cheers,

I have a question about elevated positions counting as barricades.

Last weekend, I played a game where, having priority, I positioned one of my models at the foot of a small cliff (about 1 inch high). During his moving phase my opponent moved one of his warriors at the top of that cliff, right above my guy.
What happens in this situation?

Of course, had he moved first, the situation would have been clear: it's a barricade that he's defending. But vise versa, I'm not sure, the Rule Book isn't clear about that.

So, does he get the barricade boni, eventhough he's attacking? Do we fight normally? Do we fight at all? What do you think?
(Maybe it's just another case of the german rule book beeing unprecise, so maybe you could just tell me what the english one says, please?)

We ended up him having the barricade boni, because his argument sounded valid: "You always have an advantage fighting at an elevated position, doesn't matter if you attack or not".
Sounds about right, but maybe the rules say something different. I'm really unsure.

So please help me guys!

Servus,
Aldaron
Author:  Aldaron [ Sat Jul 20, 2019 3:05 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Barricade rules - Elevated Positions
Cheers guys,

the very same thing happened again today, this time we checked the rulebook extremely carefully und discussed it for about half an hour.

We came to the conclusion, that we don't fight at all in this situation, because:

1) It would be more obvious, if there was a greater hight difference; if I was the attacker, I would have to climb to attack; that means, when I am not, the models are too far apart to fight at all.
2) Your control zone is "a ring around your model" not a bubble; therefore, when I'm standing right at the foot of a cliff, my control zone doesn't expand to the top of that cliff, because it's flat. That means, my opponent doesn't attack my model bacause he's not entering my control zone by moving to the edge of the cliff;
3) The moment my opponent moves to the edge of the cliff, it becomes a barricade for him, with all it's rules, including the expanded control zone (the bottom of the cliff is part of his control zone now). BUT, my model was there first, before it was his control zone, so I just follow the rules for "starting your turn inside a opponent's control zone" the next turn;

First I was satisfied, but then I asked myself another question: What happens, when you're fighting on a staircase? Or a hill? The rulebook states, that you also get the "elevated postion" bonus when you're fighting on top of these. But in this case, the "flat control zone"-rule doesn't apply as well.

What do you think? Are there any situations, where you get the barricade-boni eventhough you're attacking, or do they only apply to defenders?

I hope to get some opinions from you guys, as our current terrain involves a lot of cliffs and hills, plus I recently built some terrain that involves stairs... so we'll be confronted with these situations a lot.

Thanks in advance,
Liebe Grüße,
Aldaron
Author:  Wan Shi Tong [ Sat Jul 20, 2019 9:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Barricade rules - Elevated Positions
I think the interpretation you came to during your game makes the most sense for the reasons you stated.

As to your concerns. The staircase has it's own rules in the siege section about how fighting works on them so they are weird. The "slope" the elevated positions section talks about is, as far as I can tell from the contextual information, not a gently sloping hill that a model could be placed on or any sort of gradual incline. Rather it is a slope like one would see in earthworks and that is steep enough to prevent a model from being placed upon it. In that sense it is functionally identical to a "cliff" in how it obstructs the models movement. With a gentle slope, the ground elevation does not interfere with the flat control zone while on step slopes the rule functions as you have described. I would think that in principle as well, the barrier bonus should only apply to defenders.

As someone who used to play on tiered hills rather than slopes a lot (or just tall, steep-sided, hills that were basically cliffs) my play group house ruled the terrain to be considered sloping to expedite the process of combat and to prevent camping on top of them. You might consider something similar if you find the rule slows down your games too much.

Hope this is somewhat helpful.
Author:  Aldaron [ Mon Jul 22, 2019 12:00 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Barricade rules - Elevated Positions
That was very helpful, thanks!

I don't know, why I haven't thought of it, but of course, as long, as a model can stand on its own without tipping over, everything's handled as usual, you're absolutely right! Thank's for reminding me.

The tip with the stairs-rules in the siege section was also helpful, haven't thought about looking it up there. I guess my friend will be glad to hear about that rule, as it's supporting his logic (the model at the bottom always has a disadvantage, doesn't matter if he attacked or not).

About the tiered hills: we also had a similar thought after our last game, but we thought about altering the control zone rules, rather than the terrain rules.
Our train of thought was: The rule book states, that your control zone is a flat ring, but it also states, that every obstacle is ignored if it's less than half your hight. So we thought, the control zone shouldn't be a flat ring but rather a torus with the hight of half your model.
Sounds a bit complicated, but I think practically, it will be obvious if someone is engaged in combat most of the times.
Author:  Hodush [ Thu Jul 25, 2019 10:42 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Barricade rules - Elevated Positions
Tricky, especially without pictures.

In order for it to be a barrier it needs to be above 1/2 the model height as you have said, or require a jump or a climb test.
If your models are not in base to base contact then they are not really in combat. So if the wall/cliff was not there, would they be touching?

For elevated positions like a cliff i would just say:
1. If the bottom model has enough move left to climb to the top then he can still charge. Both players must agree that the terrain is climbable. We obviously keep the bottom model on the ground and imagine it is fighting while hanging from the cliff.
2. If the bottom model does not have enough move left and must make a climb test if it wanted to get to the top they do not fight. Unless the bottom model starts climbing then the top model we assume can't reach him (ignore the length of the spear or sword he has).
3. If the barrier is more than half the height of the model then whoever gets there first gets the barrier bonus, regardless of any extra height the other model might have.

4. This one should not be needed, but if you can't decide - the base of the top model must be equal or lower to the head of the bottom model for them to count as fighting. (Normally this means there is a barrier bonus like a normal wall).

So to summarise, determine if the bottom model needs to make a climb or a jump test to get over it (even if they don't actually want to). This will then tell you what they need to do to be considered as in combat.
I have not worded this very well but I hope it helps.

With specific regard to your model being charged from the top, it depends if the base of the top model was above his head or not.
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