SouthernDunedain wrote:
I would like to put it on record that myself and the others referred to in the OP were never insulting and did not shout down King Ondoher.
Well, I
felt like I was shouted down. Probably because I was bombarded with several negative opinions all at once (Instant Messaging).
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were never insulting
I apologise for not being clear, it was likely a poor choice of wording. When I said you [collectively] were "insulting my intelligence", I was referring to the absurd and hyperbolic examples of Proxy use. I.e. comparing my use of a Duinhir model
(a great model from a force I do not play, which just happened to have wargear which fitted with an official profile in the force I DO play) to the use of Frodo as Sauron etc.
I did not mean that people were being rude and making insults (i.e. name calling).
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It was unfortunate that he asked the question at that time as there were a few people who share my views in the chat box and quickly joined in the conversation.
Yes, that was the problem I think. Due to the IM nature of the chatbox, I was suddenly bombarded with several negative opinions all at once, people saying its wrong to proxy ever for any reason, that its comparable to using a Frodo model as Sauron etc.
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I did think that after we were all told to drop it, this would be the end but no...I wake up to this.
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I did think that after we were all told to drop it, this would be the end but no...I wake up to this.
Well I did say there and then that I would make a thread to set out my point clearly. I started this thread, because its a conversation that should have been a Forum post from the start, rather than a frantic argument in the IM Chatbox. Its difficult to keep up with a debate, when for every reply you write theres been 10 or more other comments making new points or arguments. Now that its in a Forum thread, we (or perhaps,
I can calm down and make a measured thought out response.
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In fact, it was Ondo who was insulting, calling any opponent (who couldnt guess that his Duinhir who was using Halbarad's rules as Aranath) an Idiot. Last time I checked, I couldnt read minds. If someone turns up to a game and has a Duinhir model, I am going to presume that he is Duinhir.
No, I did not insult any of you. I did not call any of you an idiot, and was not referring to you but rather to some hypothetical non existant person (because none of you are my opponents, except for DMS who has played against me before and had no problem with it). I refer you to this.
King Ondoher said wrote:
They said that my opponent would be confused, and wouldn't know what the model is - are SBG players really that stupid?.
Before the game I would inform my opponent what the model is supposed to be, and the rules I am using. Throughout the game, whenever necessary I would frequently remind him. I would also have the profile written down on paper for quick reference (as I do anyway for stats purposes, wounds M/W/F etc).
My point was that if my opponent: after being informed prior to the game, frequently during the game (whenever it mattered, and/or whenever asked) and having the profile written down on paper for his reference; and he STILL could not comprehend that I was using the Halbarad profile, THEN he would be an idiot.
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In my eyes, every model on the board should be as written on the army list. If you want Halbarad/ his profile, then use Halbarad and convert him to look like the model in question.
My point is that I think of the Model, and the Profile as seperate entities. When reasonable, for Theme purposes it should be OK to use a model with a different profile.
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I applaud the effort but if you use Duinhir as he is with no effort to change him bar a paint scheme, then that is just being lazy. Otherwise he is a purple Duinhir.
I used him because I liked the model
as is and hes distinct enough from Halbarad to not be mistaken as the
character Halbarad. If I'd expected that people would be so extremely negative to the idea, then I would have sculpted a face mask over him - and voila, hes now a conversion not a proxy. But then, inevitably, at least one person would then make the argument that its not distinct enough. Just at what point is a model a conversion and no longer a proxy? Its subjective.
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Another example I have seen posted is to use Theoden's model with Eomers Stats as Thengel...I'm sorry but that is just
Doesn't get more confusing for your opponent than that.
Again, not if you say from the start WHAT the model is, remind your opponent frequently and have the profile written down for quick reference.
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Or using Lurtz as Shagrat, War Leader...why? there is a purpose sculpt model for that profile which is much nicer than the lurtz sculpt. Not to mention lurtz has a bow when Shagrat does not.
That wasn't my example. I agree that
this would be a bad idea, because it doesn't conform to WYSIWYG where equipment is concerned. My suggestion DOES conform to WYSIWYG for equipment. Halbarad profile: spear, bow, armour. Duinhir model: spear, bow, armour.
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As for the statement about quitting the hobby. What the person meant was if you dont want to play by GW rules, dont go to their tournaments.
Perhaps. But I can't mind read either. The exact wording IIRC, was "If you don't like it, quit the game".
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However, this isnt a GW tournament so do as you wish. You asked a question, you got an answer, you kicked off. I will say no more on this matter and neither will the other parties involved (you know who you are).
Yes, I kicked off but not in response to the answer regarding Tournaments & Proxies. I understood and accepted the answer, though I expressed disappointment. This probably wasn't very clear in the Chatbox because the conversation moved so fast. Some people may have thought I was complaining about not being allowed to Proxy in GW Tournaments. I wasn't.
Rather, I was kicking off against the deeply negative and absolutist response to the idea (i.e. you should
never do it in any circumstances).
And I was not being rude and insulting people (nor was anyone else - there was no "rough talk"). I did not call anyone present an idiot or any other name. I did say "FFS" in exasperation once
(because I couldn't keep up with 4+ people at once, and people were making absurd counterpoints) and if that offended anyone then I apologise.
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). In any case, I would not be allowed to use this model in a GW store altogether, so it makes sense to have two alternatives depending on where I'm playing at.
Thanks for the warning. I'm a big fan of Game of Thrones also, so I still have an excuse. 
