For those of you wondering, VotR is Vassal of the Ring; a free on-line platform for playing the game.

A few of us have been playing with the software and a few scenarios have even been tried out. The feedback of members who have tried VotR is generally positive but the 2D version of the game does pose its own challenges given that a foundational pillar of the game is the WYSIWYG concept.

I thought it might be helpful to post about some of the challenges as we go along and try to reach some consensus on how to deal with them. Not to dictate another layer of rules as an overlay of a very fine rules set but simply to float a guidance that any two opponents can take or leave as they wish.

I thought I would kick this whole idea off with elevation. Seems appropriate given the 2D constraint don’t-cha-think?

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FxP

Here is a proposal for members to poke holes in, rearrange, and just generally disrespect in the hopes that the outcome will be a more perfect union of ideas. Also a disclaimer… I’m ripping off Clash of Heroes: Awakening the Bear without restraint here.

Let’s use a basic “L” naming convention, e.g., L1, L2, L3, etc. Vassal readily supports the labeling of anything you can see or move with text boxes so the infrastructure is built right in (thanks Krol!).

The basics go something like this: start with open terrain – that doesn’t need to be labeled. Now move up the elevation scale; next is L1. This would represent any elevated terrain on open terrain that would block the Los of a model on open terrain or in a building on open terrain that is not higher than two or three stories. L2 would represent elevated terrain on elevated terrain. L2 would block Los of models on L1 terrain. Some examples of L2 terrain would be trees on a hill or a hill taller than the hills around it or a multi story tower or wall. An example of L3 would be an Elven flet in a tree on a hill etc., etc... you get the picture.

A little more nebulous is the anticipated “blind spot” that would exist when drawing LoS from a relatively higher elevation to a point beyond a lower elevation within LoS. In other words what can a model on a hill “see” when looking at models with intervening terrain between such as a house or a wall; how far beyond the house must those models be to be visible? One idea to consider is standard measurements: for L1 intervening terrain 2”, L2 – 4”, L3 – 6”.

Like say, feel free to pick it apart, offer alternatives or just provide more examples of play from your own games.

PS - edited for typos and clarity.

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FxP

I think, what you may need to do, as this is all top-down, is factor the height of the models...

So, if Level (L) 0 is the table,

L1 is a fence/hedge/wall - approx 3-4ft IRL say (could also apply to Hobbits, Goblins, Dwarves)

L2 is therefore in the region of 6-8ft IRL, and would apply to the vast majority of human-sized models.

Then you just need to work out a scaling system for Trolls, Horsemen, Chariots, Buildings, Trees etc.

But giving each L an approx, value of say, 3ft will make this easier.


You would also need to tackle the issue of woods, can you shoot through the trees, providing the trunk does not block line of sight, or if you cannot draw a straight line past the terrain piece (elevation not withstanding) would you consider the shot blocked as there is potientially a quantity of undergrowth, bushes etc beneath the canopy?

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extending your idea I dared to make a suggestion based on the levels idea and blending the factoring suggestion.

It's basicly giving each feature in the software a height in inches to be written as a text on it, then factoring - in my suggestion I'll categorize the races.

This will basiclly resolve if the feature cuts the LoS, but what if both models are on the same feature? making an attempt to answer the question: when the model going up the hill when exactly will he be able to see the one on the hill. I work it out with Hills in mind but I think it could be workable for other features.

Hope it's not that complicated and makes sense. Still it could have many holes and space for improvement, or even totally discarded, so here it is and only by feed-back we can reach reasonable rules.

[h2][center]THE THIRD DIMENTION for VOTR[/center][/h2]

[h2]ELEVATION:[/h2]
Each feature will have a text label with elevation written in inches.

[h2]PEEK OVER Limit:[/h2]
[spoiler]= Elevation difference: It's the difference between the feature height and the height of the model that shows if he can see over it or not.

If the model is taller than the feature then of course he can peek over it and may follow the rules of defending it. Simpley compare the heights of them to know if it can peek over it.

- Stacked features: If the features are stacking on top of each others simply add them up to find the total height of the feature (e.g. a fence/rock at the top edge of a hill).

Then what if top model at the top is behind a fence/wall/rock or similar barrier (it's in the LoS way), don't forget to add it's height to the distance from the edge when you calculate the distance from the edge. The only exception is for the Model at the Top is touching it and can peek over it, then it's defending it and can see clearly all the way down and the feature height is not added to his own distance from the edge in this case.

Peek Over Chart
= After adding the height of the stacked barrier if applicable, a model can't peek over the edge of a barrier if the height differnce for the model is less than the following limit from the current level the model is on:

- 1" for dwarves, hobbit, and gobblins.
- 1.5" higher elevation difference for other 25mm base models.
- 2" higher for 40mm base models.
- 2.5"+ higher for the rest.

On this limit or more the feature blocks the LoS of the model.

= Notes:
- Halve those measures rounding down for models lying/knocked down rounding down to nearest 0.5".
- Flying creatures and their riders can see everywhere and can avoid hard terrain and climbing penalties of course so measure with ruler normally.
- Advanced rule: Two models of different height are on two sides of a barrier, one of them shorter than the barriera(e.g. a troll trying to spot dwarf from over a fence of 2" tall).
** The shorter can't see the taller clearly at all (unless he stands on the barrier with a jump)
** If the shorter is touching the barrier (taking a cover), they can't see each others unless the taller is touching the fence too (can see the shoter clearly)
** Partially: Both can see each others partially if the base to base distance between them equals double the fence's height or more (4" in the case of the troll and dwarf).
** Clearly: Only the taller can see the shorter clearly if the taller is touching the fence, or the base to base distance is the sum of their peek over limit plus double the fence height or more.

= Examples:
- If a dwarf standing on the ground behind a 1" fance, he can't peek over it.
- If a hobbit is standing behind a barrier of 0.5" tall, he can peek over it.
- If a Troll is trying to spot a dwarf that's behind a 2" wall (see the advanced rule above). Both can see each others partially if the ditance between them is 4"+ (2x2"), and the troll (taller) can see the dwarf (shorter) clearly if the distance between them is 7.5"+ (1"+2.5"+2x2")
[/spoiler]

[h2]Feature to move up or down on:[/h2]
[spoiler]
But what if the model can go up the feature like in case of a hill? the elevation diference will change as the model goes up or down. Calculate elevation difference between the elevation value and the current model's position in this case. Ex. a model moving up a 3" high hill. He already moved 1" into it, so elevation difference is 2" now instead of the whole 3" when he was still on the ground.

Identify the angle of the slope:
= Measure from top edge to lower level of terrain using a ruler and consult the following chart.

= Slope Angle Chart:

- almost equal to written elevation or more: easy slop - no hard terrain - unless agreed otherwise (if you decide it should be hard terrain indicate that by adding some rubbles, small rocks...etc)
- less than elevation but more than half (rounded down to nearest half an inch): hard slope - difficult terrain.
- less than half of elevation (rounded down to nearest half an inch): a drop (climb test and falling off rules are applied). you can use the model's status and climbing marker to indicate climbing status and to help calculate how far he climed so far or falls off from.

(if it's very close and argument is on, use a dice to rule it out. ex. 1-3 evil side's rules, 4+ good side's rules)

[/spoiler]

[h2]CLIMBING Drops:[/h2]
[spoiler]= Because of bird's eye view a drop of 3" sheer drop may not look like a 3" measured by a rules on the game board. to resolve this just place the model on the slope as best as you can and use the model's status to indicate how far he is from the ground (or lower level).
= this rule only applied to the drops (less than half of the elevation (measured with a ruler). other slopes use the ruler's measurement in movement as usual.[/spoiler]

[h2]CAN SEE:
(this is to test seeing another model on top of the feature or around it)[/h2]
[spoiler][h2]= Drop:[/h2]
- The Model Climbing: sees clearly once he's within Peek Over limit. or Partially if the Model on The Top is touching the edge or the barrier at the edge that the Model at The Top can Peek Over.
- The Model on Top: Sees Partially once the Model Climbing in Peek Over limit. Sees Clearly only when the Model Climbing Stands on top. If the Model on Top is touching the edge he can see the climbing Model all the way (and he's defending the high ground too!!), or touching the barrier at the edge that the Model at The Top can Peek Over.

[h2]= Slope:[/h2]
- Each one of the Models: sees Partially if the distance between them is less than the sum of their both peek over limit from the chart above. And sees Clearly once he's within Peek Over limit or if the Model at the top is touching the edge.

= Examples:
- A dwarf going up a slope can see a troll over the top partially if the base to base distance is less than 3.5" (1"+2.5") and the dwarf is still out of its Peek Limit (more than 1" away from the edge of the Top).
- In the same situation as above but the Dwarf is within the Peek Limit (1" from the edge of the Top), then he can see the Troll clearly and the Troll can only see him Partially untill the dwarf really reachs the the Top and stand on it.
- A dwarf climbin a drop can't see a troll over the top in spite its base to base distance is less than 3.5" (1"+2.5") and the dwarf is still out of its Peek Limit (more than 1" away from the edge of the Top). That's because there is no partial sight in this case, the dwarf must be within the Peek Over Limit and then he sees clearly as his eyes is over the edge.

[h2]Around Barriers:[/h2]
- Draw the LoS from the model's head to the target model's base.
- scan all the base from tip to tip to see if any thing cuts the LoS.
- if no, the target is clearly seen. otherwise partially or can't see at all depending on how much is blocked from the circle of the base.

Note: use the trunk of the tree (highlight the tree and press ctrl+t to show it).[/spoiler]

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OFTENTIME,THE SHADOWS SERVE NOT ONLY TO CONCEAL THOSE WHO WISH TO DO EVIL,BUT ALSO PROTECT THOSE WHO SEEK TO DO GOOD

I created a tutorial to better present the proposed rules (some changes has been made).

Assuming you have the VASSAL software installed, you need to download the module file again from th same link as above (some changes has been made), and also download the .vsav and .vlog. make sure the later 2 files are in the same diretory. also better to remove the VOTR4.06 module if you already have it from your software then import the new one. after that double click the .vlog file and it will open the tutorial in the VOTR software.

All you need to do now is open the Board and keep both the board and the chat window visible. you can walk through the tutorial back and forth using the step forward and redo (should be named undo) from the chat window top bar. Let me know if you have any issue running it.

The tutorial is mainly about two main charts and how to use them(Peek Over chart, and Slope angle CHart). Also in the new module file I added elevation labels to the terrain features in 2 different ways for you to decide which one you think is better (@FelixPhantasm - if you would like I suggest to add a poll for people to vote which way they like more). I only labeled part of the features and when you decide which labeling way is more convenient I'll work on the rest of them.

Hope this would make it easier to follow the proposed rules and make the games easier and more enjoyable, especially with the new summer compaign is planned for. Latest news at the following link:

http://www.one-ring.co.uk/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=14679

Also hope to get replies this time guys, even negative ones!

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OFTENTIME,THE SHADOWS SERVE NOT ONLY TO CONCEAL THOSE WHO WISH TO DO EVIL,BUT ALSO PROTECT THOSE WHO SEEK TO DO GOOD

I'll check this out definitely as soon as I get done with the various things that suddenly came up in my life.
Thanks, M-R, that's the spirit!

Hi MuslimRohirrim! I'm sorry to say that I haven't tried a game of VOTR yet. (I'm working hard on an OR summer campaign.) But I find this concept very exciting! Please keep up the great work.

As kidterminal said, we're working on a campaign at the moment, and it would really help people get games if we were to use VotR. It's a great idea and hopefully everyone will try it.

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