The One Ring :: View topic - Blackroot vale archers overpriced?

I would say shoot value and courage are both about the same cost in points, so where has the 2 points come from?

The courage of both Duinhir and the archers bugs me. That's the first Orc-like courage I've seen on the Good side, and doesn't reflect their storied loyalty and perseverance.

Actually, Warriors of Arnor are as cowardly as Goblins. Even their captains are cowards...

The_Dragon_of_Moria wrote:

Actually, Warriors of Arnor are as cowardly as Goblins. Even their captains are cowards...

Ah, you're right. But their stat fits better with the story.

The main benefit of the Blackroot Vale Archers, and the reason why I find it hard not use them is that they are big beast killing specialists. Their excellent 3+ shoot value and their re-roll to wound under the Go for the Eyes rule makes a big difference when shooting at large creatures. Combine this with Duinhir of Blackroot Vale's Critical Strike you can kill trolls quite easily.

The customer service answer from GW concerning the Blackroot Vale Archers is:

Quote:

Well it seems GW went of track with the Fiefdoms being more powerful than the actual military. I HATE and I mean HATE the points cost, the which only happens in select conditions and even then it will be used quickly as whatever you shoot at can only live so long and once its died the rule is useless.

Lets compare it to the Haradrim with bow as Cosworth said.

BV Archer has 1 better shoot value
BV Archer has a mediocre special rule

Haradrim Archer has a better courage
Haradrim Archer has a mediocre special rules.

Haradrim Archer is 2 points less.

Every 6 BV Archers gets you 8 Haradrim Archers! :roll:

I would say shoot value and courage are both about the same cost in points, so where has the 2 points come from?

Wrong dear fellow. Haradrim went up by 1 pt, they're only 1 less than blackroot vale

They shot the eyes, not the stomach.

Author:	Cosworth [ Mon May 31, 2010 6:56 am ]
Post subject:	Blackroot vale archers overpriced?
Looking at WD366 and the statline for the new Blackroot Vale Archers I can't help wondering how the point cost is calculated. The new model compares to the normal rangers but with less fight and less courage. On the plus side they get a special rule usable only vs monsters. However they cost the same as the rangers!! In most costing formulas I've seen for LotR one stat point equals one point cost, so this means the BVA should cost 6 points without the special rule. I don't see how this rule should be worth 2 points. 7 would have been the appropriate point cost. At 8 they will only be used when you are sure to meet monsters. How about comparing to a 6 point haradrim warrior with bow? Then it becomes even more obvious that something is wrong here. Am I missing something here?

Author:	hithero [ Mon May 31, 2010 7:34 am ]
Post subject:
Yup, not worth the points unless you know you will be up against 'soft' monsters. Bit of a pointless ability if you need 6/6 to wound in the first place, certainly not worth 1pt let alone 2pts - better off with better stats of a normal Ranger.

Author:	whafrog [ Mon May 31, 2010 2:44 pm ]
Post subject:
The courage of both Duinhir and the archers bugs me. That's the first Orc-like courage I've seen on the Good side, and doesn't reflect their storied loyalty and perseverance.

Author:	geezer of rhun [ Mon May 31, 2010 4:26 pm ]
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It sounds like they will require a "house rule" to make them proper...

Author:	Highlordell [ Mon May 31, 2010 5:39 pm ]
Post subject:
Well it seems GW went of track with the Fiefdoms being more powerful than the actual military. I HATE and I mean HATE the points cost, the which only happens in select conditions and even then it will be used quickly as whatever you shoot at can only live so long and once its died the rule is useless. Lets compare it to the Haradrim with bow as Cosworth said. BV Archer has 1 better shoot value BV Archer has a mediocre special rule Haradrim Archer has a better courage Haradrim Archer has a mediocre special rules. Haradrim Archer is 2 points less. Every 6 BV Archers gets you 8 Haradrim Archers! I would say shoot value and courage are both about the same cost in points, so where has the 2 points come from?

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Author:	whafrog [ Mon May 31, 2010 6:35 pm ]
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Highlordell wrote: I would say shoot value and courage are both about the same cost in points, so where has the 2 points come from? Well, if you field 10 of them, and they take down a Mumak (or make it fail a Courage test), you've pretty much won the game by spending 20 points. As well as the courage, I really don't like the "rock-paper-scissors" direction of this rule. It takes the focus off building a solid list and learning/using solid tactics, and puts the focus on fielding special troops and hoping the dice help you.

Author:	The_Dragon_of_Moria [ Mon May 31, 2010 8:37 pm ]
Post subject:
whafrog wrote: The courage of both Duinhir and the archers bugs me. That's the first Orc-like courage I've seen on the Good side, and doesn't reflect their storied loyalty and perseverance. Actually, Warriors of Arnor are as cowardly as Goblins. Even their captains are cowards...

Author:	whafrog [ Mon May 31, 2010 8:52 pm ]
Post subject:
The_Dragon_of_Moria wrote: Actually, Warriors of Arnor are as cowardly as Goblins. Even their captains are cowards... Ah, you're right. But their stat fits better with the story.

Author:	Cosworth [ Tue Jun 01, 2010 6:19 am ]
Post subject:
The customer service answer from GW concerning the Blackroot Vale Archers is: Quote: The main benefit of the Blackroot Vale Archers, and the reason why I find it hard not use them is that they are big beast killing specialists. Their excellent 3+ shoot value and their re-roll to wound under the Go for the Eyes rule makes a big difference when shooting at large creatures. Combine this with Duinhir of Blackroot Vale's Critical Strike you can kill trolls quite easily.

Author:	spuds4ever [ Tue Jun 01, 2010 6:38 pm ]
Post subject:
Cosworth wrote: The customer service answer from GW concerning the Blackroot Vale Archers is: Quote: The main benefit of the Blackroot Vale Archers, and the reason why I find it hard not use them is that they are big beast killing specialists. Their excellent 3+ shoot value and their re-roll to wound under the Go for the Eyes rule makes a big difference when shooting at large creatures. Combine this with Duinhir of Blackroot Vale's Critical Strike you can kill trolls quite easily. Uh huh, killing trolls pretty easy? I don't think so. They'll need 6 followed by 4s on a simple mordor troll and 1 re-roll? Not amazing to be honest. In most games you won't even know if you're facing monsters or not and 8pts. for taking a guess that your enemy will have monsters and only significant if you take many is reallllly not worth the points IMO.

Author:	General Elessar [ Tue Jun 01, 2010 7:41 pm ]
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I agree with spuds4ever. Is there any explanation in their description for the low courage?

Author:	Constantine [ Tue Nov 27, 2012 10:13 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Blackroot vale archers overpriced?
Now with the new rules being introduced with the Hobbit I think they will shortly be brought to limelight only for people to realize that they still aren't worth it.

Author:	ElfGeneral [ Wed Nov 28, 2012 12:45 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Blackroot vale archers overpriced?
With the new rules making monsters better and so more common and FAQ that says they can re-roll both dice if they the have to roll for 6/4,5,6 then they do have some heighten use but the're still a little iffy P.S. been away from the site for a while loving the new background and layout

Author:	GothmogtheWerewolf [ Wed Nov 28, 2012 12:50 am ]
Post subject:	Re:
Highlordell wrote: Well it seems GW went of track with the Fiefdoms being more powerful than the actual military. I HATE and I mean HATE the points cost, the which only happens in select conditions and even then it will be used quickly as whatever you shoot at can only live so long and once its died the rule is useless. Lets compare it to the Haradrim with bow as Cosworth said. BV Archer has 1 better shoot value BV Archer has a mediocre special rule Haradrim Archer has a better courage Haradrim Archer has a mediocre special rules. Haradrim Archer is 2 points less. Every 6 BV Archers gets you 8 Haradrim Archers! I would say shoot value and courage are both about the same cost in points, so where has the 2 points come from? Wrong dear fellow. Haradrim went up by 1 pt, they're only 1 less than blackroot vale

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Author:	Lord Hurin [ Wed Nov 28, 2012 1:43 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Re:
GothmogtheWerewolf wrote: Wrong dear fellow. Haradrim went up by 1 pt, they're only 1 less than blackroot vale Yes, but look at the original posting date. 2 and a half years ago when he wrote that, he was absolutely correct.

Author:	Draugluin [ Wed Nov 28, 2012 2:54 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Blackroot vale archers overpriced?
I could see them now being ALMOST worth it, but still not quite. However, a simple house rule of making them a point cheaper or giving them elf bows would suddenly make them very desirable warriors. Also, I think the whole background for them and the reason they have low courage is because they're just hunters who are good at taking out big game, but not scary big game. (yes, I know I'm answering a 2 year old question)

Author:	Lord Hurin [ Wed Nov 28, 2012 3:07 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Blackroot vale archers overpriced?
But they had the balls to stand UNDER the Mumakil and shoot upwards at them. That rings of more than C2!

Author:	Draugluin [ Wed Nov 28, 2012 3:09 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Blackroot vale archers overpriced?
They shot the eyes, not the stomach.

Author:	Lord Hurin [ Wed Nov 28, 2012 3:32 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Blackroot vale archers overpriced?
Draugluin wrote: They shot the eyes, not the stomach. They were still underfoot, as Duinhir's sons were trampled. Getting close to the Mumakil at all was no small feat.