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Starting SBG
http://test.one-ring.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=23182		 Page 1 of 3
Author:  ElfGeneral [ Tue Jun 05, 2012 5:53 pm ]
Post subject:  Starting SBG
I'm thinking about starting to play SBG, I have been playing WOTR for a while but have always been put off of SBG for two reason

1) The small number of troops (always felt that my many tactical mistakes would cost me dearly)

2)The number of heroes compared to troops, I could never understand why a group of heroes like Boromir, Faramir and a Damrod would be leading a small army of Gondorians (30 models or so) against say the Saladan, Kamual and Damyr with an equally small force of Easterling in my eyes the winners of that battle would reshape middle earth to some noticeable degree (if Boromir dies then the fellowship changes, if Faramir dies there is no defence of osgiliath and the battle for Pelennor Field changes and if saladan and Damyr die there will likely be many fewer Southerns at Pelennor) it makes no sense that they would meet with such small armies at there disposal.

Anyway rant over I'm starting to change my mind, I collected elves for my WOTR army and have enough (I think) to field a reasonable force of either wood elves, high elves of Galadhrim but don't know which ones to use from what i can get from a qick look over this forum wood elves are the best because the can shield with their spears (i'll confess I have no idea what that means) and have throwing weapons but my WOTR brain is telling me the higher defence of the High elves would be better

Which one do you think I should take?
Author:  SuicidalMarsbar [ Tue Jun 05, 2012 7:16 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Starting SBG
The best army around at the moment is thranduil, as many stormcallers as you can get, and loads of wood elves; this army can knock over practically everything (a VERY good advantage in sbg) and then swarm and kill everything regardless of enemy numbers. If you're stuck on what type of elf to field then you can ally the three into eachother as long as you have heroes to lead each contingent. The elf twins are probably the most popular models in the game. Shielding with a spear basically means that their spears have the same effect as shields do, meaning you only pay for them to have spears, but they essentially have shields as well. The theme of each force carries over into each army btw, elves and dwarves are generally high cost, high quality, and goblins are still low cost low quality.

I'll also try to address your points for you:

1) The small number of troops is because it is skirmish play, having too many individual troops doing their own individual thing would get very complex.
2)The number of heroes is because in wotr a hero is there to make their unit more powerful and boost it up, whereas in sbg the higher end heroes are designed to be singlehandedly killing alot of men without support. Very few heroes support fellow troops in any way besides courage in sbg. Also not every game is thematic, as in (referring to your example) a game with boromir, faramir and damrod does not necessarily have to be based on a battle that happened, the games can still be random just like wotr. Although there are ways to play set events in order, in which case there are rules that limit whether or not a downed hero comes back for the next scenario.
Author:  GothmogtheWerewolf [ Tue Jun 05, 2012 10:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Starting SBG
In addition, most Heroes in SBG are generic Captains (in the Warbands version that is, not LoME) eg a 1000pt Haradrim army may have the Golden King, the KoU and 4 Haradrim Chieftains.

Also, in Warbands, there are only 2 Elven factions not 3, the Wood Elves and Galadhrim are in the same list, and the High Elves are seperate, however you need 1 hero per 12 Warriors.

As marsbar says, the numbers are different for a good reason, it's difficult to play SBG with large numbers of troops, the game is designed to be more realistic.

Also, as I say to all in this position, I find it strange for anyone to be interested in WotR before SBG
Author:  whafrog [ Tue Jun 05, 2012 10:03 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Starting SBG
Before you decide anything, start small and learn the rules. They are simple to learn but hard to master, subtle in many ways that are not immediately apparent. This is especially true of armies like wood elves. Start with a basic captain and maybe a couple hundred points of warriors on each side at most. Try the different armies to see which ones you like the flavour of best. There are arguments to be made for practically any army.
Author:  ElfGeneral [ Tue Jun 05, 2012 11:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Starting SBG
I did play SBG for a little bit but since then LOME was born, lived and them was shot in the back of the head by GW and them all these new sourcebooks have come out and lastly people are now going on about these things Warbands

And as people seem to be confused I understand SBG is on a smaller scale. In fact that is why I could never work out why what in terms of the books and the Middle Earth universe would be great army leaders and king would be fighting each other with only a few troops on each side it makes no sense, In terms of SBG it all makes perfect sense I just couldn't get past it in terms of a wider context.

Anyway from what your saying I should take wood elves but some part of me still wants to take some Defensvie units so how does this sound

Warband 1
Thranduil + Wood elves w/Spears and Sentinels

Warband 2
Stormcaller + Wood Elves w/spears and hand weapons

Warband 3
Twin or Twins (don't know if they come in a partnership or not) + High Elves w/ heavy armour and shield

Warband 4 (if it is needed)
Stormcaller + Wood Elves w/Bows

I do plan to start small but having had a WOTR army I will have no problem with any size or shape elven SBG army so if you do have any changes you think I should make them I could probably do them
Author:  ElfGeneral [ Tue Jun 05, 2012 11:16 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Starting SBG
^ this army does seem to be lacking in archers which are supposed to be good aren't they, it would be a shame not to use them
Author:  whafrog [ Wed Jun 06, 2012 1:20 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Starting SBG
Yep, first rule of SBG elves: max bows. Also note that the 33% bow limit applies to each ally in your army, so you'd need 4 high elf bows, and 8 wood elf bows.

As for your complaint about why the mega-heroes would run around with such a small cohort...it's a game which would have far more limited appeal if they weren't included. Nobody would play a game where the best hero was Maugby Biggles, Sergeant of Gondor, whose claim to fame is that he saw Aragorn once :) Think of the scenarios as just one part of a larger battlefield, or where a small groups have been separated from the larger forces in the area. Or if that's not enough, think of each warrior as representing 2-5 warriors. It's a bit abstract (which is why I don't play WotR...might as well play Risk instead) but still on a skirmishy scale.
Author:  ElfGeneral [ Wed Jun 06, 2012 12:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Starting SBG
I have some Galadhrim knights I want to use (spent ages painting them but they aren't very good in WOTR so don't get a lot of use) but nobody seems to have mentioned cavalry should I take some or not and which warband should I put the archers in?
Author:  whafrog [ Wed Jun 06, 2012 1:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Starting SBG
Cavalry can be handy for objectives, depending on the scenario, but they're very expensive. IMHO if you're going to take them, might as well give them all bows and shields. This makes the most of their Expert Rider rule. I really like the idea of a small host of knights, like RoR on steroids: a mobile archery platform that can move 6" and still shoot with great odds at D5 and lower, whose mount and rider are reasonably protected from S2 and S4 shooting, and that is able to sweep in from a ridiculous distance and charge with the best warrior's fight score in the game. Sounds great in theory, but I haven't built enough yet to try it out.
Author:  Damian [ Wed Jun 06, 2012 1:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Starting SBG
Quote:
I could never understand why a group of heroes like Boromir, Faramir and a Damrod would be leading a small army of Gondorians (30 models or so) against say the Saladan, Kamual and Damyr with an equally small force of Easterling in my eyes the winners of that battle would reshape middle earth to some noticeable degree


But this sort of thing happens in LoTR. Aragorn fights the Witch King and some Nazgul on Weather top, The Fellowship encounter the Balrog in Moria, Gandalf faces off against Saruman in Orthanc and the WK at Minas Tirith. Theoden, Eowyn and Merry face the WK at the Pelennor etc etc. There's loads of Hero vs Hero action and SBG was created to replay those scenarios from the story, and as Whafrog says, a game could easily represent a small part of a larger battle.
Author:  GothmogtheWerewolf [ Wed Jun 06, 2012 4:45 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Starting SBG
You've missed the very awesome Shelob's Lair scene, impossible in WotR.
Author:  ElfGeneral [ Wed Jun 06, 2012 5:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Starting SBG
I used to dislike SBG because of the reasons I mentioned above but I got over them that is why I want to start playing it so could we get of my previous dislike of something I now like and help me with my army list please :oops:

P.S two things how does Shelobs lair work, doesn't Sam just get killed like instantly and there are loads of situation where SBG would be useless but WOTR would be great e.g to do the entire battle of Pelennor Fields they are different games with different styles of play for different situations
Author:  SuicidalMarsbar [ Wed Jun 06, 2012 5:03 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Starting SBG
ElfGeneral wrote:
I used to dislike SBG because of the reasons I mentioned above but I got over them that is why I want to start playing it so could we get of my previous dislike of something I now like and help me with my army list please :oops:

P.S two things how does Shelobs lair work, doesn't Sam just get killed like instantly and there are loads of situation where SBG would be useless but WOTR would be great e.g to do the entire battle of Pelennor Fields they are different games with different styles of play for different situations


In shelobs lair Sam gets loads of bonuses that work very nicely against shelob to balance it all out. I'm pretty sure he gets terror thanks to the phial of galadriel, and shelob has like 3 courage. Meaning the two will likely only ever be fighting on his terms.
Author:  GothmogtheWerewolf [ Wed Jun 06, 2012 5:06 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Starting SBG
Sam desn't just get killed instantly,unless the Sam player is very bad. Gollum is there and helps both sides, if Shelob is wounded she has to pass a courage test or run away, and Sam has Might pts to use, and Fate pts and Sting. See the RotK Journeybook for more details (if you have it).

Speaking of which, in that book, there is an attempt at making Pellenor Fields in SBG, there are over 500 models per side on the picture. But I think most of Pellenor Fields is better in WotR.
Author:  SuicidalMarsbar [ Wed Jun 06, 2012 5:08 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Starting SBG
Isn't Pellenor fields done as 4 seperate battles in the rotk book that you can link up to make a super one if you wish?
Author:  GothmogtheWerewolf [ Wed Jun 06, 2012 5:08 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Starting SBG
Yes.
Author:  ElfGeneral [ Wed Jun 06, 2012 5:16 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Starting SBG
Yeah WOTR is better for bigger games if anything just because you can move people in groups of 8 plus with ease, anyway army list help please (I got a game tomorrow and want to have a decent army ready)
Author:  GothmogtheWerewolf [ Wed Jun 06, 2012 5:17 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Starting SBG
Which army/armies are you thinking about using?
Author:  ElfGeneral [ Wed Jun 06, 2012 5:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Starting SBG
GothmogtheWerewolf wrote:
Which army/armies are you thinking about using?


check further up I posted that is elves and there's a very basic army list there somewhere as well :)
Author:  GothmogtheWerewolf [ Wed Jun 06, 2012 5:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Starting SBG
I see.

Wood Elves should be kept in Bands following the ratio:

2 Blades, 4 Bows, 6 Spears.

Thranduil is a very good hero for Wood Elves.

Legolas, Stormcallers and Captainsd are themed options to lead the rest. Don't bother with Cloaks on Warriors, only on Heroes.
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