Mirkwood Spiders: It's Not All That Bad

GothmogtheWerewolf · **Posted:** Thu Dec 12, 2013 8:59 pm

As I said I would do, here is the thread to discuss the Mirkwood Spiders. I think we all know what there problems are of course. They cost more points than the old ones, they have a very low Fight value, they have large bases which means they can be surrounded by loads of enemies and can't fit through all the terrain that the old one can. And they retain the low defence of the old ones.

Now, this thread was set up with positives in mind, and so that's where we get to no.

A minor strength is that their large bases help block movement and can protect valuable models like Ringwraiths from getting charged whilst their low height allows the wraith to cast magic over it easily.

Their low height, as with the old ones, allows them to reduce bow fire and hide behind taller, but smaller based and less important models.

Unlike almost every model in the game, they do not require a hero to lead. If you're playing evil and you ever have a few points spare but not enough for a hero and you can squeeze one in, or two or three depending on the points values. You can also field them in large amounts too if you have either the finance or the alternatives. Which leads onto:

The paralysing ability. In an all Spider force in particular you can use mass paralysis which neutralises their low combat ability. Or in a force with fewer Spiders they can be used to disrupt enemy lines by targeting warriors, they are less points than Barrow-Wights, you can even combine the two.

Also, by fielding these, you can stop the Spider Queen from being an Independent Hero by giving her some of these guys to lead. Better themewise and useful in game too, as you no longer need to throw in a random Orc/Goblin Captain to lead them.

So, what do you say?

Galanur · **Joined:** Fri Feb 24, 2012 11:28 am **Posts:** 1389

Having a chance to paralyze a target without will to resist and spending the precious fate points instead seems very big in many situations (even with a very short range spitting) I might not see hordes of em, but around 2 to 4 easily... (if you support your orc line with a meh type of orc captain vs an elf with good stats, risking a spit to get a chance to lower the elf fate store seems biggie)
Not to mention how much joy you will have to paralyze the balrog if you fight against moria lol and also great way to get a trick on the sleeve to counter cavalry without having magic interference to stop the paralize in doing so

I do share the remain though with you and better give a chance to this bugging this for ocne to see how we play with them.

And in all a great way for a themed dol guldur army really adding more potencial with barrow wights and shades(some stuff you would lvoe to get on running on a dol guldur themed army)

Bilbo · **Posted:** Thu Dec 12, 2013 10:06 pm

i like the idea of using between four an six of them to "Paralyse and Run" at the flanks! This could be more effective when combined with heroic march.

GothmogtheWerewolf · **Posted:** Thu Dec 12, 2013 10:11 pm

Ah yes Galanar, I forget about the Paralyse essentialy working against Fate rather than Will. Whilst they only hit on 5s rather than 4s they do have that much more shots, and they are perfect for a themed Dol Guldor army. And yes, having plenty of Cheaper Orc heroes would work in the way you say

Heroic march for the new Spider variant of Hit & Run would be a good idea Bilbo, though it wouldn't be for all the time as you don't want to be using all your Might supporting these guys.

Oldman Willow · **Posted:** Thu Dec 12, 2013 10:19 pm

Other than Fine cast and woods block their movement, according to some,I think the large base is going to make for some modeling opportunity. I would never conciser a decorated base to have any effect on the game what so ever. Some people want to say it does if it is to their advantage. I don't think it will mater among friends.
I have decided to make 20 bases. I will add and remove the spiders as needed. I have a number of OOP metal and even some resin spiders plus the bucket of toy spiders.I will add the project to my wip.
I look forward to reading your opinions and seeing your models. I am unsure how many I would use in a point on point battle. As recommend on a 50% forest table they would be deadly.I am looking forward to playing the scenerio in the book.

Dr Grant · **Joined:** Fri Aug 03, 2012 1:50 pm **Posts:** 1339

Thanks for writing this thread Gothmog, after seeing your comment in the other DOS thread I was looking forward to this. I've been excited about these spiders (both models and rules) since the first movie came out so I was really looking forward to using them but, like many, I was left staggeringly underwhelmed by their profile. The financial cost doesn't really bother me on a personal level, not to sound flippant, I'm certainly not loaded but I can commit money to my hobby and don't mind paying a lot for nice looking figures (which I really think these are) as long as I get good use out of them in my games. I was hoping to read this and see the light but I must confess I'm unconvinced.

The model height is an interesting consideration that I hadn't thought of but I honestly think that with 2 wounds and D3, using these models as some sort of front rank screen just won't work, they'll be gunned down by shooting in the first couple of turns. Even of they do make it to combat they'll likely be facing 3 enemy models due to their base size and with their inexplicably reduced fight value (compared to Moria spiders) will go down horrendously easily. I've played games where Moria Spiders have gone head to head with my Uruk Ferals and then eaten them for lunch, a rare feat, these poor F2 creatures would be cut down in minutes by the uruks.

The appealing part of their profile is the Web shooting effect but again this isn't as great as it sounds. Certainly Bilbo's idea of Paralyse and run isn't viable (sorry Bilbo!) as it's only got a range of 6"! Spiders have to lose priority (otherwise once they move in range the enemy will charge them and they won't be able to shoot) only move 4" to be able to fire and then hope to roll a 6. If it was a throwing weapon attack that could be fired as they charged in and they had a shoot value of 3+ or even 4+ then it would be great but as it is, it's a hell of a risk to move you model within range of their lines, if you don't get a 6 then one bad priority roll and that spider's dead.

If they were monsters then this would all be different and they'd be a very interesting choice, far from broken (they still need to win the fights, but much more appealing. As it is they are (I think) the only models in the game to be on monster bases and not be monsters.

The best part of them is that they don't need a leader and if you're a few points short and have maxed out warbands (a rare occurrence in my experience) then they might be handy for filling up the corners. That's how I'll be using them I reckon, I definitely want 2 as I love the models so much but I doubt I'll get many more than that.

Sadly for me they just don't seem worth it, thanks for the opinions though and good luck to you, I'd like to hear how you get on and who knows, maybe I'll come up against a spider horde soon, get mercilessly crushed and realise the folly of my ways - I genuinely hope so! :-)

Galanur · **Joined:** Fri Feb 24, 2012 11:28 am **Posts:** 1389

sounds very interesting...

for me orc cappy with sword/shield fighting high elf cappy with shield and blade I dont mind shooting at all, I will use the feint rule sincee my fight is already low and since odds are against me if the elf win its not likely it will kill my orc in 1 round unless he rolls the 2 A pretty well to wound, if the spider shoots get the elf hes gonna get in bad trouble not only auto losing but also suffering from the feint or this could be use if my orc has an axe for example :P

keep in mind these spiders are for range

mertaal · **Posted:** Fri Dec 13, 2013 9:15 am

AFIAC a throwing weapon, or any similar weapon with a 6 inch range isn't actually a ranged weapon, it's just a bonus to CC effectiveness.

This is because you are only really going to get to use it on a turn where you charge.

Beowulf03809 · **Posted:** Fri Dec 13, 2013 5:30 pm

If the rules don't define the spider's ranged attack specifically as a "Thrown Weapon" then it needs to be treated as a normal ranged shooting attack. Just because it's a 6" range doesn't automatically make it a thrown weapon attack as far as I know. This means it can only be used in the shoot phase and as noted above it's pretty hard to get off a shot if you can be charged.

I also would have expected them to be a far more effective than their original small brothers. Having played primarily Mirkwood Elves, Harad and other 'soft' armies (D3 / D4) for a number of years it doesn't but me too much having a low defense. It only matters if you get hit. :-)

But you need enough other traits to compensate. Multiple attacks, good Fight value, Shielding, enough models to swarm, support options, etc. All these help adjust for a low defense. A very large base, low Fight, average attacks (really...2A has become common in too many models IMO) AND a low Defense just doesn't sound appealing.

And is it true it's not a Monster? Really????

I can see some attraction of being able to toss them in without regard to warband limits but I normally have more issue with using up my points before filling all warbands rather than filling warbands and having points to spare.

Still looking forward to more discussion here and especially table-top experience as it comes out.

whafrog · **Posted:** Fri Dec 13, 2013 6:55 pm

Beowulf03809 wrote:

I also would have expected them to be a far more effective than their original small brothers.

The only problem with that is that in the book Bilbo kills lots of them by himself...with thrown stones before he pulls out Sting...so if you want to replicate a book scenario they can't be that great. Haven't seen the movie yet (no hurry, waiting until next weekend), so I don't know if that's the same there.

Draugluin · **Posted:** Fri Dec 13, 2013 6:59 pm

While it is true about Bilbo killing them that easily, it would make more sense for them to be smaller and cheaper than bigger and more expensive.

mertaal · **Posted:** Fri Dec 13, 2013 8:09 pm

Beowulf03809 wrote:

If the rules don't define the spider's ranged attack specifically as a "Thrown Weapon" then it needs to be treated as a normal ranged shooting attack. Just because it's a 6" range doesn't automatically make it a thrown weapon attack as far as I know.

Yes you're right, but that's not what I meant. Galanur commented that we should "remember, these spiders are for range".

My point was that any attack with only a 6" range is pretty much just an addition to close combat rather than an effective ranged weapon, as once you're within range of it, chances are you'll be in CC pretty soon afterwards.

I definitely don't see these as effective ranged troops, due to the highly limited range they operate at.

JamesR · **Posted:** Fri Dec 13, 2013 9:12 pm

Beowulf03809 wrote:

(really...2A has become common in too many models IMO)

Totally agree on this, something I've been harping on myself.

With the base size I was anticipating 3 attacks 3 wounds, something in the ball-park of a cave troll in offensive effectiveness. I do like the paralyze option its very similar to the "ensnare" rule I hypothesized about before their release but they don't seem to be able to overcome that massive base size in my opinion

Thermo · **Posted:** Sat Dec 14, 2013 8:53 am

Easy fix for these spiders is to bracket that they are a monster

which I think they're supposed to be but it's been overlooked

Galanur · **Joined:** Fri Feb 24, 2012 11:28 am **Posts:** 1389

spiders as monsters ugh.. seems nasty

GothmogtheWerewolf · **Posted:** Sat Dec 14, 2013 2:35 pm

For them to be Monsters, thermo, they would have to be 5pts more than they are no, then again as they are, thy would be better 5pts less then they are now. But you never know what might happen with an FAQ. Fingers crossed eh?

I strongly disagree with the idea that they should be 3 Attack/3 Wound models. Firstly, 2A/W is not too common, secondly as whafrog says they need to be beaten by Bilbo, and to continue that point further they need to be much weaker than Shelob. Whilst I was hoping for 50-75pt monsters, I am not surprised this is what we got.

Dr Grant, thanks for the detailed reply. I admit that I don't thing these Mirkwood Spiders are tournament worthy, but that isn't a problem for me. Also when I was discussing them, whilst an all Mirkwood Spiders list would be fun, it wouldn't be too good. These spiders have their uses (imo) but there are many problems especially Fight and Defence. if one was to go All Spiders, it'd have to be something like this (500pts):

The Spider Queen
4 Mirkwood Spiders

Druzhag
10 Giant Spiders.

The problem here would be keeping Druzhag alive more than anything (Modelling regular spiders to be upright would be my plan). The Mirkwooders go in the 2nd rank (unless forced by deployment) and cast paralyse from between regular spiders, and send the regular spiders in to do the dirty work. these Mirkwooders should avoid fights when possible, unless they are engaging an already paralysed model.

That's what I think anyway. Either that or just use a few mirkwooders behind a mob of tough infantry.

Grungehog · **Posted:** Sat Dec 14, 2013 11:11 pm

I had a look a them today instore, and frankly they should be f4 like the others, just consider that in the book at least, bilbo has the ring on the whole time, and in game terms that means he would have a better fight than them anyway, especially when you look at the rules concerning bilbo in the first scenario

GothmogtheWerewolf · **Posted:** Sun Dec 15, 2013 2:32 am

Grungehog wrote:

I had a look a them today instore, and frankly they should be f4 like the others, just consider that in the book at least, bilbo has the ring on the whole time, and in game terms that means he would have a better fight than them anyway, especially when you look at the rules concerning bilbo in the first scenario

Well Fight 3 would be reasonable, you wouldn't expect an (admittedly poor unless very well played) sniper to be as good in combat. But then, they should at least have the decency to cost the same pts as the older ones.

Beowulf03809 · **Posted:** Sun Dec 15, 2013 11:39 am

While I agree with the discussion of how the spiders would be in "book terms", think of what our valiant Dwarves would have been in "book terms". It's really not too fair to judge one subset of forces as needing to be based on the book but allow others to be judged only on their up-scaled movie representation.

Except Smaug. Smaug needs to be judged on which ever version is the most bad @$$.

Seriously though I do NOT want to encourage every new model to be more powerful because that trend in small amounts has already crept in a little and is the downfall of a game in the long run. I have no problem with them being less effective than their GSpider brothers but base size, points, etc should all balance. It doesn't sound like the balancing went very well.

mertaal · **Posted:** Sun Dec 15, 2013 12:46 pm

I personally don't see any power creep between last year's and this year's releases.

Between the Hobbit and LotR? Yeah, perhaps a little. But not game breaking just yet.

Mirkwood Spiders: It's Not All That Bad

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