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| How to play all hero? http://test.one-ring.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=30799 |
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| Author: | Badner [ Sun Mar 29, 2015 9:38 pm ] |
| Post subject: | How to play all hero? |
Hi everybody! Today, I did play again after a long time. Because i have seen a lot people playing all hero, I decided to try it, too. My army was: Aragorn - Strider with Horse; Armour; Boromir of Gondor with Horse; Legolas with Elven cloak; Armour; Gimli, son of Glóin I played against: Thorin's Company Warband 1 Bombur Army of Thror Warband 1 Thorin Oakenshield with The Oakenshield; 6 Warrior of Erebor with Spear; Shield 6 Warrior of Erebor with Shield Warband 2 Dwalin 6 Warrior of Erebor with Spear; Shield 6 Warrior of Erebor with Shield The Army of Laketown Warband 1 Alfred the councillor We played until one army got killed. In the first combat turn, I was able to kill Alfrid and Bombur with a heroic combat. However, my opponent killed Aragorn in the next turn by surrounding him. In the following turn, he killed Gimli. After that, I did not have any chance anymore. Legolas an Boromir got killed after several turns and he only lost 5 Dwarfs, Alfrid and Bombur. I recognized that I did not keep my force together very well. However, can you tell me how I have to play an all hero army, please? Is my army not good enough? Which tactics can I use with an all hero army in general? Which tactics can I use with an all hero fellowship army? Should I try to kill troops or focus on heros? Thank you for your help, Badner |
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| Author: | Bernardo [ Mon Mar 30, 2015 10:30 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: How to play all hero? |
All hero armies are almost always very difficult to play I think. You really need to keep everything together and kill the enemy heroes as fast as possible. And try not to get trapped. Blowing almost all your might in the first turns to get some good results is many times the right thing to do. And even then you need a decent amount of experience to win with them |
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| Author: | Arthas367 [ Mon Mar 30, 2015 12:15 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: How to play all hero? |
Though I think certain lists lend far better to all hero, my personal favorite is Arnor having Aragorn that buffs some of the best heroes around with pathfinder, and banner is amazing imo, aragorn, twins, legolas, gimli, and halbarad and Arathorn all are very solid and with elven cloaks, they can harass extremely well Add in radaghast and such for taste |
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| Author: | Badner [ Mon Mar 30, 2015 8:27 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: How to play all hero? |
Thank you, can you please give me some general tips for an all hero army? Is the fellowship good for an all hero army? What do you think about this army?: Beorn Aragorn Legolas (BoFA profile) |
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| Author: | Arthas367 [ Tue Mar 31, 2015 10:17 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: How to play all hero? |
The fellowship is alright at best, it's just that half of them are practically just free kills and do little to help the overall goal ( and they move 4) I'm not too familiar with any of the hobbit rules, though I've heard legolas from the hobbit is one of the strongest heroes in the game I know some of beorn, he's a very strong monster ( and monsters are some of the best things these days) but I imagine a canny player will abuse his Beserker rule and force you into bad situations ( usually involving getting trapped) Though honestly without even knowing new legolas, it's painfully obvious their is little to zero synergy, which I think a good hero outing require, as they need to be able to win at a particular facet, beorn charges ahead while legolas and aragorn slink across the field with poor defense? Or will beorn stay in human ( and low defense form) so he keeps pace with the other? Having a caster really would help, some hero forces don't need it, but I can't think of one that wouldn't benefit from things like Saurman, gandalf, radaghast ( especially him), etc. Beorn is scary by himself, but what if his target is now immobilized? Or the enemies that could have surrounded him sorcerer blasted to the ground? All hero forces require far more thought than your average army, and require the same thought once they hit the table to put odds in their favor |
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| Author: | Badner [ Tue Mar 31, 2015 8:07 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: How to play all hero? |
Thank you fr your tips. The problem with a spell caster is their high point cost and they are easy to kill in combat. At a 500 points army, you only have 2 fighters. I think that this is not enough for protecting the caster. An other option would be: Radagast Thranduil (BoFA) Legolas (BoFA) Dwalin Total: 500 Pts. But this army does not synergy effects, too. However, the main problem is not the army, it is the way I am playing it. Today, I lost with the three hunters against an unexperienced player. It went quit good until Aragorn died. He played: Thorin with shield 24 warriors of Erebor Balin Alfred I am simply not able to kill the heros fast enough. When Aragorn was dead, Thorin has been a great danger for Legolas and Gimli. I learned that an all hero army needs high defence miniatures. An army with high defence is, but without synergy and fluff: Glorfindel with armour Boromir of Gondor Thorin with shield Radagast Do you think that Beorn is too expensive for a 500 Pts. all hero army? Because I would realy like to play with him. Thank you for your help, Badner |
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| Author: | mr. dude [ Wed Apr 01, 2015 6:35 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: How to play all hero? |
With all hero, you either need insane durability, or you need speed. That's one, you have to know that your opponent can't hurt you (either because you have too high a defence/wounds value, or because you know you can get away). Two is that your damage output has to be insane, each of your heroes should be killing 3-4 models per turn. Call heroic combats, give your heroes favourable matchups, you're simply not allowed to get surrounded (because, as you've found out, that leads to you losing). Basically, don't try a head-on charge, you won't win. Use your mobility (because from now on I'm assuming that all your heroes have horses/are naturally fast) to make sure you pick your fights, charge the flanks, and avoid getting overwhelmed. Three is obvious, but important enough to state anyway, LOTS of might. You're essentially winning the game through heroic moves and combats, you need to be able to play the game on your terms. Wizards are actually great in all hero armies, last thing you want is an enemy hero getting in combat with you when you're not ready, a quick immobilize/command would help. Then you can do the big line-clearers like sorcerous blast and nature's wrath, that will really swing the fight in your favour. If you want to take Beorn though, you get hurl, which is almost the same. Basically, pick your fights, kill lots of things as quickly as possible, and don't die. |
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| Author: | Badner [ Wed Apr 01, 2015 9:41 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: How to play all hero? |
Thank you for your answer. I thought about Beorn, Boromir and Gimli, however, Boromir might not have enough durability. Do you think, that Beorn can replace a spell caster? Because, I am afraid that I cannot protect him enough. Beorn, Thorin with shield and Dwalin might have enough durability. |
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| Author: | Galanur [ Thu Apr 02, 2015 4:53 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: How to play all hero? |
boromir cap white tower on horse shield lance is still a tough nut to crack a d7 with 6 might.and 3 fate and that horn... nasty |
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| Author: | mr. dude [ Thu Apr 02, 2015 5:28 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: How to play all hero? |
The problem with Thorin and Dwalin is again, despite them being great combat heroes in a normal army, they don't do the killing quickly enough for an all hero army. With all hero, you pretty much need the guarantee that each hero is taking down 3-4 models per turn, you need to be chewing through your opponent's army as quickly as possible because you have no chance of winning a battle of attrition. Dwarf heroes are all about attrition, they can reliably kill 1-2 enemies per turn, but that's just not enough in this kind of army. |
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| Author: | SouthernDunedain [ Thu Apr 02, 2015 7:43 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: How to play all hero? |
Have you not met Dwalin? He isn't about attrition, he is about smashing the enemy in a few turns as possible. Give him a pony and watch the enemy die in their droves. |
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| Author: | Arthas367 [ Thu Apr 02, 2015 7:50 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: How to play all hero? |
I'd love to see a all hero mainly dwarf warband, with Durin, dwalin, maybe thorin or others to taste and Old Radaghast With alot of them ignoring the two hander penalty, or having some other kill ability would seem nice , with Raddy restoring wounds to Mr d9 |
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| Author: | Badner [ Thu Apr 02, 2015 9:29 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: How to play all hero? |
Apart from Beorn and Treebeard, which heroes can guarantee 3-4 kills per turn? Most heroes have S 4, which is not enough for that many kills per turn. An other question: How many miniatures should an all hero army have (at 500 pts. and per 100 pts.)? I noticed that it is important to kill the opponents' heroes as fast as possible. However, I noticed that this is nearly impossible when your opponents' heroes are dwarfs with D 8. How do you deal with these heroes? Edit: I looked at the scenarios and I don't know how you can win scenario Number 5 with an all hero army against a normal army. Any tips? |
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| Author: | mr. dude [ Thu Apr 02, 2015 10:18 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: How to play all hero? |
I'm about to get super hypocritical and make the post that I hate reading when others try it: the "Here is how you play this army no other way works" post. Of course, anyone can make a beast out of any army, you just have to know how to use it, that's why I get bothered by the "Model X is better than Model Y" posts. So you know what? I'm going to preface my post by suggesting you ignore it, if you want to use Dwarf heroes, you will figure out a way to make them rip enemy armies apart. The reason I have reservations about them, even Dwalin and even my personal favourite: Durin, is that it's hard to pick your fights with them. M5 means that you will be outmaneuvered, whereas an army with such low numbers requires you to completely rule the movement phase so that you're the only one in control of how combats happen. As SouthernDunedain rightfully points out, the Hobbit Dwarves can get ponies which helps a lot. Now, with regards to Dwalin, I can't quite remember how many might points he has, if it's 3, I take back my earlier statement, he is perfect. If it's 2, that's a bit tougher since you're basing your entire game around heroic combats. That should answer your question Badner, any 3A S4 hero on a horse should be able to reliably take out 2 models per combat (often 3 if the hero has a +1 to wound weapon, but it's hard to get in combat with 3 models unless your opponent charged you, and you don't want your opponent charging). Call a heroic combat and you've doubled that number. As for killing opposing heroes, it's difficult to force. In a bigger points game, I would say have a wizard command the hero away from his army early on, charge two of your big heroes in, kill in one turn. Otherwise, I would say, be patient and pick your moment wisely. The worst thing you can have is a 70 point Dwarf Captain holding up 150+ points of your army for more than one turn, and quite likely threatening to wound your hero. Any hero that's not Sauron can die in one turn if you focus enough things on him/it, so instead of trying to force the hero to die, wait until the chance presents itself: it will. Remember, you control the move phase, your opponent's heroes shouldn't be able to threaten you unless you're in combat, and you will only ever get in combat on your terms. I haven't read Scenario 5 in a while, I'll review it and answer later. |
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| Author: | Draugluin [ Fri Apr 03, 2015 3:37 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: How to play all hero? |
mr. dude wrote: The problem with Thorin and Dwalin is again, despite them being great combat heroes in a normal army, they don't do the killing quickly enough for an all hero army. With all hero, you pretty much need the guarantee that each hero is taking down 3-4 models per turn, you need to be chewing through your opponent's army as quickly as possible because you have no chance of winning a battle of attrition. Dwarf heroes are all about attrition, they can reliably kill 1-2 enemies per turn, but that's just not enough in this kind of army. Very few heroes will be able to kill 3-4 a turn. Even if you use Heroic Combats, you can only hope to get a max of 3 out of most heroes, meaning that your 3-4 number only works max a couple turns. Realistically, you are going to be killing 1-3 a turn, assuming you win of course. If you don't win because you ran out of might, you will easily be surrounded and killed. Unless you have D9 with either the Crown or the Arkenstone to help you survive. |
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| Author: | Badner [ Fri Apr 03, 2015 6:46 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: How to play all hero? |
Thank you for your help. I think that some of my army ideas aren't that bad. However, I am testing against an Erebor army. I recognised that it is nearly impossible (at least for me) to win against them with all hero, because even my big heroes do need 6s to kill normal troops. Even when I win the fight against two warriors, I usually don't kill both of them. When I don't have M left or loose the roll-of, I am surrounded by at least 3 dwarfs, which is very dangerous with piercing strikes. Is there any way to deal with this problem? |
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| Author: | mr. dude [ Sat Apr 04, 2015 9:06 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: How to play all hero? |
Badner and Draugluin, I would answer both of you by saying: Lances. Anything that gives you +1 to wound will make the job much easier. This type of army is all about picking your fights in your favour. All hero will never win a head-on charge, you have to stack the odds in your favour. Take enough might that you wouldn't run out by turn 4, take an army that gives you advantages in the move phase (whether it's through your speed or your ability to control your opponent), and remember that even the best combat heroes will lose to enough persistence if you misuse them. It's easier said than done, but it's crucial with all-hero armies that your opponent doesn't pick the fights. Your opponent is not allowed to charge you, ever, otherwise you will lose. If I've had Durin (constantly getting refuelled by Tom Bombadil) die in one turn of combat, that should say enough about how fragile even the toughest of heroes can be. Whatever way you can come up with to make sure your opponent never EVER gets to control the move phase, that's how you will win. I don't know your playing style, so won't give you tips there, just find a way to always be in control. That all sums up to: Dominate the move phase and have lots of damage output. |
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| Author: | Draugluin [ Sun Apr 05, 2015 2:49 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: How to play all hero? |
Lances work against everyone, but when you still need a 5+/4+ to wound Durin, he's substantially more durable than Boromir or Aragon who just need a 5+. So he's still a better tank than anybody else, and with his own +1 to wound, he can deal as much damage as he can take. |
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| Author: | Badner [ Sun Apr 05, 2015 8:28 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: How to play all hero? |
Draugluin wrote: Lances work against everyone, but when you still need a 5+/4+ to wound Durin, he's substantially more durable than Boromir or Aragon who just need a 5+. So he's still a better tank than anybody else, and with his own +1 to wound, he can deal as much damage as he can take. I think you are right, Durin is a tank. However, I am not sure if that is enough for an all hero army, because he is very slow. In the German forum, there is a thread about all hero armies.There is written: For choosing the heroes: 1. No hero should be useless. Otherwise you loose a of points. 2. Every hero has to be able to look at himself and survive against multiple enemies. 3. You need a surprise. Something like magic for example. 4. You need a lot of M. According to this, there are heroes mentioned, which could be good for (without hobbit profiles): Arathorn Balin Treebeard Boromir (both) Celeborn Dáin King of the dead Drár Durin Elven Captain Elendil Elladan Elrohir Elrond Imrahil Galadriel (both) Gandalf the grey Gandalf the white Gil-Galad Gimli Glorfindel Gwaihir Haldir Isildur King of Men Legolas Mardin Múrin Radagast Saruman Aragorn Strider Thranduil Dwarf Captain Dwarfking The link:http://forum.tabletop-hdr.de/viewtopic.php?f=45&t=15960&sid=fbbe7793eae72bda5363e8d47fe7c650 |
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| Author: | Badner [ Tue Apr 07, 2015 7:30 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: How to play all hero? |
What do think, which heroes are good enough for an all hero army? Which profile should a hero have? F6, S4, D6, A3, W3, C5, M3, W2, F2 should be enough (wizards also included). Is it enough to have as much heroes with this profile? If not, what else do you need? |
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