The One Ring :: View topic - Need help with White Council Chamber

Not sure how much this will help as this is about the finishing, not building the structure. I'm planning a bit similar thing and bought a bag of seashell pieces from a craft shop. They are not very curved and have very beautiful mostly green/blue shine on the inside with a hint of other colours depending on the viewing angle. My idea is just to cover the structure building material, at least the floor and maybe also the pillars with them. It's not the same as in the movies but matches very well my imagination of how Rivendell could look like.

-- Pasi

Thanks for the info, I went to Riot Art tonight and they had hardly any foam in stock. The person working had never heard of Depron so I guess I need to take my business elsewhere. I did purchase a hot glue gun and cutting mat so it wasn't all for nothing.

If you were to knock up something minor that would be amazing but I don't wish to be a burden, hopefully this piece can do your teachings justice!

I'll be on the hunt again tomorrow night for materials

Author:	Green_Dragon [ Wed Oct 01, 2014 5:27 am ]
Post subject:	Need help with White Council Chamber
I'm back after a bit of a break and wish to make a White Council diorama, the only problem is I have very limited terrain building experience. I'm studying pictures and don't wish to do the whole chamber tower just the first levels columns, the table, floor and perhaps have some water/vegetation. I know I don't wish to use Hirst art blocks to build the chamber due to the fact that by the looks it won't paint up as nicely as I wish and I'd like a smoother stone look. Does anyone have any ideas how I could begin such a task? What materials I could use? Any help would be appreciated as I am quite the terrain novice.

Author:	valpas [ Wed Oct 01, 2014 9:32 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Need help with White Council Chamber
Not sure how much this will help as this is about the finishing, not building the structure. I'm planning a bit similar thing and bought a bag of seashell pieces from a craft shop. They are not very curved and have very beautiful mostly green/blue shine on the inside with a hint of other colours depending on the viewing angle. My idea is just to cover the structure building material, at least the floor and maybe also the pillars with them. It's not the same as in the movies but matches very well my imagination of how Rivendell could look like. -- Pasi

Author:	Gandlaf the Grey [ Wed Oct 01, 2014 11:58 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Need help with White Council Chamber
My initial thoughts would be something like styrene to make the curvatures. You could make it a section at a time ie two supports and the arch, but then again by the time you have done one section it would be better to create a mold to have duplicated accurately. I think if you draw this out on some card and mark out the columns accurately you will have the dimensions for the first piece. Once you have the mold made there are various things you can use to make each cast. Perhaps dental plaster would be a good choice but this is purely from reading. I have no experience of mold making. It seems logical to me but perhaps Charlie aka old man willow or Pekka aka Celevue could help out.

Author:	JamesR [ Wed Oct 01, 2014 1:14 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Need help with White Council Chamber
As Gandlaf mentioned, those are probably our local terrain masters. I didn't pay attention to how ornate the chamber was until now, it's a very subtle grace to the room, which can be difficult to translate to a miniature. My advice would be to make an archway out of wood as a guide and use that to cut each one from polystyrene; I think that's probably the easiest way forward

Author:	Green_Dragon [ Wed Oct 01, 2014 2:51 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Need help with White Council Chamber
@ Valpas, sounds like an interesting idea, are you 'plating' the building with them? Any chance of a picture? @ Gandlaf & JamesR, thanks for the tips guys. With a mind to terrain building I'm studying Celevue's and Oldman Willow's threads as a change from past visits where I've just looked in awe. I'm such a novice that polystyrene slipped my mind completely! I'm planning on using polysterene to make the archways but still unsure how to go about it. How do I make each quarter curved enough to make a circle? I'll be using wire or card to make the elvish designs on the building.

The One Ring http://test.one-ring.co.uk/

Need help with White Council Chamber http://test.one-ring.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=29501	Page 1 of 2

Author:	Celevue [ Wed Oct 01, 2014 3:50 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Need help with White Council Chamber
Hey, GD! One of the first things I would do is look at the Weta environment closely, e.g. this pic shows well the area you are planning to cover (without the upper layer of columns): I would of course try to use my normal favorite materials, foamboard, cardboard and depron, and first cut the circular "roof" of the structure from 5mm foamboard. Next, the outer columns are fairly simple geometric forms. The staircase at Amon Hen had similar half-round embedded columns, which I did by slicing a large drinking straw in half. This could be glued to styrofoam column core. You could build hidden support structure from foamboard, and build the outer columns separately, then cover the entire outer surface with 3mm Depron. The inner wall of the ring is a bit more complex, with more ornate openings. This could be replicated well enough by beveling 3mm Depron. The columns in the inner ring are similar to the outer ones, except for the statues. It might be nigh impossible to find or make almost-exact statues compared to the movie Chamber, but there might be substitutes that invoke the spirit of those seen in the screen caps. The statues don't appear to be overtly large, so suitable 28mm figures might do the trick - for example, Hasslefree Miniatures' Leonore and Alicia in their fantasy humans range, and Lady Greensleves and Princess of Wales in Ebob Miniatures' Scottish Rebellion range. Thomarillion has also statues that might be suitable, but they are larger than 28mm figures. Wire for elvish designs was my first thought, too, but it may be hard to repeat the patterns unless you do some master parts from, say, mdf, to wrap the wire around. It might be far easier, and almost as good-looking, to actually engrave the ornaments rather than having them rising above the wall surfaces. This could be easily done with a ballpoint pen on Depron surface. If you found a suitably-sized cardboard cylinder (a cylindrical gift box or a hat box), that would give you a nice base shape, to which you could cut openings and which you could cover with a surface material like Depron.

Author:	Mapper [ Wed Oct 01, 2014 4:01 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Need help with White Council Chamber
This is why I have been doing rohan vs rivendale. The elvish design I have been finding very hard to do any justice to. I agree on not using Hirst Blocks, I tried the dome with them and found them too bulky. One method that has been mentioned that I am thinking about is doing the design on thin plastic sheets/card and then wrapping that around something more substantive. Could use the design on a computer, duplicate until you have the size you want, print and paste on the card and then trim out the design. That way you have one piece that you just wrap around something. Gives you a smooth surface look on the outside. Just an idea that is has been bouncing around in my head.

Author:	Green_Dragon [ Wed Oct 01, 2014 4:16 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Need help with White Council Chamber
@ Celevue, thankyou so much!! I will definitely follow those instructions, one thing I'm not clear on is the actual arches is that the 3mm depron? If so how do I attach the columns if the arch isn't there first? @ Mapper brilliant idea with the computer templates, I shall begin searching for elvish designs. By the looks of it there are 10 columns on the outside and 10 on the inside. I'll measure things up once I buy all the tools and materials I need. I'm guessing if I'm working with foam ill need some sort of wire cutter?

Author:	Celevue [ Wed Oct 01, 2014 6:11 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Need help with White Council Chamber
I'd use Depron down to the tops of the columns, and, hidden within the Depron, support bits cut from foamcore. The columns would then be glued to these supports. The description is probably not helping much... I've been thinking of doing some elven ruins for the Battle of Rivendell scenario in our campaign. That's still waaaay off in the future, and I have never given any thought about what those ruins should look like. But, I could quickly cobble together a rough mock-up looking like a section of the Council chamber, with two inner and two outer columns and the arches in between to clarify my descriptions (and test the viability). Give me a day or so and I'll see what I can come up with. Oh, and I count 12 columns inside & outside. If you are working with foam, a hot wire scroll table is by far the most useful cutting tool. There are also specifc foam knifes you can buy at hardware stores, with long, flat blades.

Author:	Green_Dragon [ Thu Oct 02, 2014 2:07 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Need help with White Council Chamber
Thanks for the info, I went to Riot Art tonight and they had hardly any foam in stock. The person working had never heard of Depron so I guess I need to take my business elsewhere. I did purchase a hot glue gun and cutting mat so it wasn't all for nothing. If you were to knock up something minor that would be amazing but I don't wish to be a burden, hopefully this piece can do your teachings justice! I'll be on the hunt again tomorrow night for materials

Author:	Oldman Willow [ Thu Oct 02, 2014 4:53 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Need help with White Council Chamber
valpas wrote: Not sure how much this will help as this is about the finishing, not building the structure. I'm planning a bit similar thing and bought a bag of seashell pieces from a craft shop. They are not very curved and have very beautiful mostly green/blue shine on the inside with a hint of other colours depending on the viewing angle. My idea is just to cover the structure building material, at least the floor and maybe also the pillars with them. It's not the same as in the movies but matches very well my imagination of how Rivendell could look like. -- Pasi A very interesting idea. I would like to see photos even if your idea does not work. Green_Dragon wrote: Thanks for the info, I went to Riot Art tonight and they had hardly any foam in stock. The person working had never heard of Depron so I guess I need to take my business elsewhere. I did purchase a hot glue gun and cutting mat so it wasn't all for nothing. If you were to knock up something minor that would be amazing but I don't wish to be a burden, hopefully this piece can do your teachings justice! I'll be on the hunt again tomorrow night for materials Look for Depron in shops specialized in flying models Look for Pink foam in building supply. You are going to need a circle cutter for the curved walls and arches. I have one from Xacto but it is not large enough. Look for a compass that will hold a ballpoint pen. Examples of circle cutters. I made the hot wire cutter guide but I could have used a ruler and made it adjustable. I am going to put the hot wire engraver on a T Square.The large compass may be hard to locate try building supply. Celevue's post reminded me of table cutters. This attachment is for my wire saw. It also would be easy to make.

Author:	Celevue [ Thu Oct 02, 2014 6:45 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Need help with White Council Chamber
@OMW, nice to see your ideas, too - I ended up not using pink/blue styrofoam at all (although I will probably use small bits as statue pedestals). Upon studying the screen captures and the Weta environment, I decided that the table is about 4 cm in diameter, and the inner part of the chamber is 20 cm across. The outer rim with columns is about 6 cm wide, making the outer diameter of the entire chamber 32 cm. For the height of the outer wall I chose 9 cm. Using screen caps as a help, I quickly designed the following templates: The chamber floor plan (or section thereof): The chamber outer wall: The chamber inner wall; here my measurements seemed a bit off, and I ended up having taller wall above the doorways than what the movie shows. Consequently, I had to extend / extrapolate the elven ornaments a bit higher than they are in the movie chamber. My plan was to cut the wall surfaces from 3mm Depron, with an overall thickness of the walls being 12 mm – the openings have a tricky layered / beveled structure, which calls for four layers of 3mm Depron sandwiched together. The final template pic shows the walls facing inside the round column “corridor”. I’m building a section with three outer and three inner columns, i.e. two full arches on both sides. As a starting point, I cut a section of the outer ring ceiling / roof from 5mm foamboard. A 6mm wide strip of 5mm thick foamboard is glued to the underside. The purpose of these is mainly to be the attachment points to the inside-facing walls. All the columns seem to have half-round part on the side, and I decided to use suitable plaster castings from Hirst Arts molds for the column details. Here’s an overall pic of the parts laid out & templates cut to size. I started by gluing the foamboard strips to the roof part, followed by the attaching of the outer wall cut from 3mm Depron: Next, the inward-facing wall. Note that the columns are separate for the outer wall, so the Depron parts only extend as far down as the column tops. Small bits of 5mm foamboard were glued in between the layers to allow more secure attachment to the column tops later on. Next, the innermost wall – here, the columns are more integrated as part of the wall, so I cut the Depron part all the way down to ground level. Here, too, I used 5mm foamboard strips as supports between the front and backside of the inner wall. (note: edited the link to the "hidden" walls template pic; the measurements in the original pic were incorrect)

Author:	Celevue [ Thu Oct 02, 2014 6:46 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Need help with White Council Chamber
While waiting for the white glue to set, I worked on the outer columns. Two strips of 6mm Depron, 10mm wide, were glued back to back to form the core of the column. Hirst Arts plaster bits were glued to the side, and a rectangular piece of cardboard makes up the top. The arches will then rest on these bits of cardboard. The beveled inserts within the arches were cut from 3mm Depron, and beveled carefully with a sharp hobby knife. The inserts seem to have a tile pattern, which will be embossed with a ballpoint pen later on. Front part temporarily in place, the back part is cut to match… …and beveled with a hobby knife as well, with light sanding to even out the surface. The insert halves are glued together, and while the glue is still wet, the combo is inserted in place. Dry-fitting the columns in place: The inner columns will have slightly different Hirst Arts parts near top. Similarly to the outer arches, the inner arches will have beveled inserts, albeit slightly more complex in shape. I’ll leave those for tomorrow, along with test-fitting some 28mm figures for statues. The elvish ornaments can be either embossed onto the Depron walls, or formed from wire. I’ll probably leave that decision to the future, closer to the time when I will actually need this piece of terrain. Between now and then, I will also need to get a few more figures to serve as statues. But I hope this gives some inspiration as to how the White Council Chamber could be built!

Author:	Isilduhrr [ Thu Oct 02, 2014 7:12 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Need help with White Council Chamber
Celevue, get back on your own thread - we can never see enough of your Helm's Deep! I must confess, i am awed end envious of your apparent ability to judge scale as easily as that. this piece looks great.

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Author:	Celevue [ Thu Oct 02, 2014 7:16 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Need help with White Council Chamber
Sorry, much apologizing - I just got carried away a bit. It's really Gandlaf's fault for invoking my name I have some horses to basecoat (before it gets too cold outside), and then it's more of Helm's Deep again!

Author:	Oldman Willow [ Thu Oct 02, 2014 7:30 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Need help with White Council Chamber
Celevue wrote: Sorry, much apologizing - I just got carried away a bit. It's really Gandlaf's fault for invoking my name I have some horses to basecoat (before it gets too cold outside), and then it's more of Helm's Deep again! Don't apologize I just ordered some Depron Is it possible for you to make a photo of the floor from the Weta model?

Author:	Celevue [ Thu Oct 02, 2014 8:31 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Need help with White Council Chamber
Sorry, OMW, I don't have the Weta model of the Council Chamber - of the Weta environments, I have the pre-ruin Orthanc (will come handy soon enough when I start building Isengard), Rivendell and Erebor front gate. The photo I posted of the Council Chamber environment was grabbed from the web. I tried to look for a photo taken straigth down, but didn't find one (yet). Would love to see such a photo myself, too.

Author:	Erunion [ Fri Oct 03, 2014 5:37 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Need help with White Council Chamber
Celevue, you are so talented that it's disgusting. Carry on, my friend!

Author:	Green_Dragon [ Fri Oct 03, 2014 3:57 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Need help with White Council Chamber
@ Oldman Willow, Thankyou so much for showing me the tools of the trade, my hunting tonight didn't go so well but I'll be resuming on Sunday. @ Celevue, Honestly I don't know what to say, I'm so appreciative of what you've done and the help you've given. The only question I have for now while I'm still in the gathering phase of my mission is what Hirst Art mould do I need to buy to get that column? It looks spot on as does all your work, if I can produce something looking a quarter as good as your work then I will be one happy terrain maker!

Author:	Celevue [ Fri Oct 03, 2014 4:29 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Need help with White Council Chamber
@Jonathan, thanks – that made me laugh out loud! @GD, you’re most welcome! The Hirst Arts mold #45, Gothic Dungeon Builder, will give you parts for the column sides which I used for the outside columns (a more ornate top). The simpler top I used for the inner columns is in mold #41, Gothic Dungeon Accessories. If you have no specific need for the other parts in #41, just make both inner and outer columns similar by using #45 only. I’ll still steal in a few pics of today’s work – the drawing & cutting of the inner wall inserts (here it is definitely worth using a fresh, sharp blade): After the inserts were in place, I glued on the plaster parts onto the inner columns, and glued small bits of blue foam as statue pedestals. It was then also time to attach the outer columns. And here it is, as it stands now – and as I will leave it for a couple of years or so, until our campaign reaches scenarios played in elven realms. This piece will fit nicely with the Battle of Rivendell and Siege of Lothlórien terrain. The statues on the foam pedestals are 28mm figures from eBob and Hasslefree Miniatures; the large statue in the center is from Thomarillion, and the broken bits of statue heads etc from Scibor Miniatures. The Galadriel figure is from Knight Models. Before painting & weathering, I’ll add some gap filler here and there.