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 Post subject: Mumaks being allowed to have heroes?
PostPosted: Sat Dec 29, 2012 1:22 am 
Kinsman
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I played a game today with my Hobbit/Ent army vs four Mumaks and Suludan with a group of raiders. The game was a maelstorm, so my opponents plan went to Devlan Mud, and I was easily able to pick off each Mumak one-at-a-time.

So afterwards we were talking and agreed that some might with a Mumak would be nice, but right now there does not seem to be a way to get them any, unless we are missing something. Is it possible for an Epic hero to be added to the Mumak? If not, since the crew inside is normal rank-and-fodder troops, can they pay and get additions like captains, flags, taskmasters, ect.?

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 Post subject: Re: Mumaks being allowed to have heroes?
PostPosted: Sat Dec 29, 2012 9:12 am 
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I don't think there is anything in the rules to stop a Mumak from having an Epic Hero (though I wouldn't do it myself, it's not really realistic), but htere are no command company entries with it's profile, so it can't have a captain or anything like that (just like, for instance, Vault Wardens).

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 Post subject: Re: Mumaks being allowed to have heroes?
PostPosted: Sun Dec 30, 2012 12:07 am 
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No, they cannot have Epic Heroes join them. They are a monster - Epic Heroes can't join monsters as they have no command company. As for upgrades like a captain etc, the reason they can't take these isn't because they have no command company, but because they don't have the option.
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 Post subject: Re: Mumaks being allowed to have heroes?
PostPosted: Sun Dec 30, 2012 8:13 am 
Kinsman
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There are plenty of other entries where Epic and normal Heroes are with a monster; the Nazgul and Khandish Chariots are examples.

According to the rules, the first company in a formation is the command company. The Mamuk is a formation, and I would argue that the crew is the command company and shoud be able to have a Epic hero in it like a normal company does.

Now why? Mamuks suffer from not being able to do heroic actions. Take a look, a Dragon has might and a Balrog does too. Now I agree, a Mamuk doing a heroic duel is pretty stupid, but all the other heroic actions, especially heroic charge, is quite important. Right now there is no way for Mamuks to ever be able to take the charging initiative away from anyone if they do not have priority for the turn. This is something they should be able to do. If the Mamuk was without a crew I would be fine with the rule as it is, but it is the crew (the driver) that is commanding the beast to do what he wants it to.

In our game, I had the priority, and the Mamuk had to just sit there and take the charge because they had no ability to charge before me. Especially for a creature that uses charging as its main way of attacking, this should be allowed.

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 Post subject: Re: Mumaks being allowed to have heroes?
PostPosted: Sun Dec 30, 2012 11:40 am 
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A Mumak is only as good as its handler but I can't see him having might due to the silliness that might occur. They are just steering into battle rather than charging but I do agree... how the heck does anyone charge a Mumak (stomp, stomp)?

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 Post subject: Re: Mumaks being allowed to have heroes?
PostPosted: Sun Dec 30, 2012 11:54 am 
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Killerkatanas - compeltely different. In those cases, the monster is a hero. Not an Epic Hero inside the monster. Also, if we assumed an Epic Hero COULD join a monster there are two major problems: they would replace the model (as dictated by the rules, they replace a model in the command company) for starters; secondly, there would be more Epic Heroes in the command company than rank and file troopers, which isn't allowed to happen.

As for regards to rules stating that the first company in a formation is the command company, that's correct. But a monster doesn't HAVE companies, so there is no first company to BE the command company.

You can argue all you wish that the crew are the command company, but the rules don't state the crew are a company of any kind and there is no support for that in the book. You can houserule it and I encourage that to be the case, but in non-houserule games, you can't do it. Ever, lol.

As for why - I agree that it would be immensely useful to have Might with a Mumak. but that's also the reason why they don't have access to it. The "driver" isn't heroic in any way to warrant any Might either. A Balrog and a Dragon are hugely powerful entities which should have access to Might as they are more than mere behemoth creatures. Oliphaunts are simply large beasts, nothing spectacular in their fates or skills - they're just huge.

Lastly,and this bit is to Slythar, if you know what you're doing, it's easy to charge a Mumak. Equally, if you know what you're doing, you'll avoid your Mumak getting charged. I spent a game charging a Mumak with a King's Champion to keep it out of the game and, if I lost priority, used Might to charge it. Didn't do any damage, but neither did it to the rest of my army - relatively few points tying up quite a lot.
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 Post subject: Re: Mumaks being allowed to have heroes?
PostPosted: Sun Dec 30, 2012 2:11 pm 
Elven Elder
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Hashut is correct on this one. There are a few things I would like to add though.

Although Epic Heroes cannot join Mumakil, sometimes you can houserule it, as my local GW did during a Charge of the Mumakil Battle.

Secondly, there is a way of giving Might points to a Mumak in a legal way (without houserules or cheating) there is a little thing called Overlord, which allows a Mumak to make Heroic Actions using the Mt points of an overlord (usually Gothmog). This is a completely legal move.

Thirdly, it is illegal to field a Hobbit/Ent army because you cannot spend more than 25% of your pts on Ents/Hobbits as they are only available as allies.

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 Post subject: Re: Mumaks being allowed to have heroes?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 31, 2012 2:30 am 
Kinsman
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Goth,

First, I do not think a non-might formation can use the overlord ability. As I interpret the rule, you can only use it to give might points to a formation or hero that already has it. Since a Mumak has no might it cannot be the receiver of might points.

Second, my army was two battlehosts, one "Muster of the Shire," and the other "Last March of the Ents." According to page 4 of the BH book, the rules of allies do not apply.

Brian
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 Post subject: Re: Mumaks being allowed to have heroes?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 31, 2012 2:46 am 
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Killerkatanas wrote:
First, I do not think a non-might formation can use the overlord ability. As I interpret the rule, you can only use it to give might points to a formation or hero that already has it. Since a Mumak has no might it cannot be the receiver of might points.


The FAQ says they can.

Quote:
Q: Can a leaderless friendly formation still benefit from the Overlord special rule even though no model in it has any Might? (p69)
A: Yes.

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 Post subject: Re: Mumaks being allowed to have heroes?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 31, 2012 3:42 am 
Kinsman
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GothmogtheWerewolf wrote:
Killerkatanas wrote:
First, I do not think a non-might formation can use the overlord ability. As I interpret the rule, you can only use it to give might points to a formation or hero that already has it. Since a Mumak has no might it cannot be the receiver of might points.


The FAQ says they can.

Quote:
Q: Can a leaderless friendly formation still benefit from the Overlord special rule even though no model in it has any Might? (p69)
A: Yes.


Terrific! Problem solved.

So you would need either Saruman or Gothmog, since these are the only two bad guys that have this?

Brian
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 Post subject: Re: Mumaks being allowed to have heroes?
PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2013 10:59 am 
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Hashut's Blessing wrote:
Killerkatanas - compeltely different. In those cases, the monster is a hero. Not an Epic Hero inside the monster.True

Also, if we assumed an Epic Hero COULD join a monster there are two major problems: they would replace the model (as dictated by the rules, they replace a model in the command company) for starters; secondly, there would be more Epic Heroes in the command company than rank and file troopers, which isn't allowed to happen. Also true

As for regards to rules stating that the first company in a formation is the command company, that's correct. But a monster doesn't HAVE companies, so there is no first company to BE the command company.again true

You can argue all you wish that the crew are the command company, but the rules don't state the crew are a company of any kind and there is no support for that in the book. You can houserule it and I encourage that to be the case, but in non-houserule games, you can't do it. Ever, lol. This is not true. While the mumak, logically speaking, is a monster, this is not the case. The unit entry says: "Rare formation - one company compromising a Mumak and thirteen crew". Thus, a mumak has a company, thus it has a command company, thus it can have Epic Heroes in it (up to seven, in this case).

As for why - I agree that it would be immensely useful to have Might with a Mumak. but that's also the reason why they don't have access to it. The "driver" isn't heroic in any way to warrant any Might either. A Balrog and a Dragon are hugely powerful entities which should have access to Might as they are more than mere behemoth creatures. Oliphaunts are simply large beasts, nothing spectacular in their fates or skills - they're just huge. I agree, it's silly, but it's legal. And on the other hand, you can see someone like Suladan commanding from the top of a mumak, to keep a good overview of the field.

Lastly,and this bit is to Slythar, if you know what you're doing, it's easy to charge a Mumak. Equally, if you know what you're doing, you'll avoid your Mumak getting charged. I spent a game charging a Mumak with a King's Champion to keep it out of the game and, if I lost priority, used Might to charge it. Didn't do any damage, but neither did it to the rest of my army - relatively few points tying up quite a lot.I have only once fought a mumak, and that one ran off after the nasty Uruk stuck it full of crossbow bolts, but this is undoubtedly true. I only can't see how you make sure a model with a move amount you have no influence whatsoever on doesn't get charged.


I've looked it up - my findings are in green

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 Post subject: Re: Mumaks being allowed to have heroes?
PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2013 12:20 pm 
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My apologies on the "one company" front. Mayhaps you CAN have a hero on a Mumak, but I wouldn't recommend it as it's easy to remove crew and, thusly, the hero.
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 Post subject: Re: Mumaks being allowed to have heroes?
PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2013 2:03 pm 
Elven Elder
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The rules are a little iffy on the epic heroes front, it could theoretically be ruled either way, but GW-supported tiurnies rule it a no no. So that is all.

killerkatanas, yes Saruman or Gothmog, the latter is cheap enough to be squeezed in any way, but if you refer the former then go for it.

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 Post subject: Re: Mumaks being allowed to have heroes?
PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2013 9:22 pm 
Kinsman
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Slythar,

I have five Mumaks, which frequently see action in our games (I loan out armies to just about all who play me). I charge Mumaks all the time, usually with a non cavalry or infantry formation, and has a hard-to-kill or better rating; a king's champion, Khand Chariot, Troll, Eagle, or an Ent is a good choice to do this with.

In almost all cases when I do not have priority I use might to gain the initiative to charge. When I charge, I usually hit the Mumak with several formations. In the last game, I had two Ents and Treebeard in a "battlehost" attack one (Treebeard can call a heroic charge in this case and all Ents within 12" can do so for free).

Mumaks are easily crushed in this manner, because they cannot charge, and why anyone would allow them to charge, is beyond me.

Oh, BTW, I have had arguements on the correct way to allocate damage to a Mumak. When you roll a six it says to "immediately roll again and apply both results." Now I interpret this as I roll another die and apply what is rolled on the chart. For example, I roll a six and then I roll a four. I check the result of the six and then the four on the table. Others in my group say you add the result together, so in this example I would have a six, plus four, equal 10--I check the result of ten on the table.

How do you guys do it?

Brian
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 Post subject: Re: Mumaks being allowed to have heroes?
PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2013 11:17 pm 
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So Goth,

In your houserules for the new models, will you treat the crew of the Beast of Gorgoroth as a "company" with the ability to have an epic hero?

Brian
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 Post subject: Re: Mumaks being allowed to have heroes?
PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2013 11:26 pm 
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oeh that sounds interesting! How about that you guys???? Gothmog on a Great Beast of Gorgoroth.. Muhaha

(I'm a WOTR gamer who reads all these posts but doesn't have enough experience to answer them.)

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 Post subject: Re: Mumaks being allowed to have heroes?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2013 1:15 am 
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The correct way is to apply the 6 and apply the 4. Nothing says add them together...
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 Post subject: Re: Mumaks being allowed to have heroes?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2013 5:28 pm 
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Hashut's Blessing wrote:
The correct way is to apply the 6 and apply the 4. Nothing says add them together...



If we do it your way, explain how you kill it outright? If you roll 6,6,3 (15+) then by my reasoning the beast is slain auto etc.

Whereas your way, the beast would only gain 2 wound counters and lost a few crew...which when you have rolled consecutive 6's...seems like a kick in the nuts tbh.

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 Post subject: Re: Mumaks being allowed to have heroes?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2013 6:56 pm 
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Isn't the idea to NOT have it be killed outright? What would be the point of buying it. The crew dies off very fast, too fast I think, and remember you add a +1 for every wound the beast has, so these pluses really add up quickly to give you 15+.

Heck, the beast is only going tombe able to take 11 hits at most, because it is impossible for it not to stampeed when the 12th hit is applied.

A roll of a six (because you get to roll again) is a guaranteed death of 2 of the 13 crew, but eventually what is going to happen is that the beast is going to panic.

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 Post subject: Re: Mumaks being allowed to have heroes?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2013 9:24 pm 
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SouthernDunedain wrote:
Hashut's Blessing wrote:
The correct way is to apply the 6 and apply the 4. Nothing says add them together...



If we do it your way, explain how you kill it outright? If you roll 6,6,3 (15+) then by my reasoning the beast is slain auto etc.

Whereas your way, the beast would only gain 2 wound counters and lost a few crew...which when you have rolled consecutive 6's...seems like a kick in the nuts tbh.


You are wrong. that's not how it works. it os possible to kill it outright though if you are incredibly lucky and roll 6 after 6 after 6 after 6 after 6 etc It's not meant to be easy to kill them.

When I go upstairs I will get my WotR book out and quote the exact wording of the rule.

@killerkatanas on the Great beast, probably yes it should if the Mumak can do, and the great beast is meant to be a mini one and it is closer to the ground. The problem is bases do not fit on it, so in order to put a hero on the beast they will have to remove the slot and make it pinnable, sounds a lot of work. Though there is the easy way - just stick the model on the beast's base. Might increase the cost a little though.

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