About using a themed proxy for Grima, you could always use what I plan to. Have you ever heard of a Duskwraith, that's what my Grima will be.

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"I am the Flying Spagetti Monster. Thou shall have no other monsters before me"
-FSM.

Hum. Not a bad idea. I have a couple extra nazgul that would fit the purpose nicely with some minimal work.... Although, I have grown fond of my little nurgling.

Got a couple photos of my ghosts/spectres that I put together, I'll put more up later today, perhaps:

http://www.box.net/shared/335ao0bk06pxk76trgdg

It's not all of them, just a couple units to show you what the look like. I'll do an all-army shot at some point here...........

I see that when it comes to Ghostly Riders you are a Morgul Knights person and not a Riders of Rohan person.

_________________
"I am the Flying Spagetti Monster. Thou shall have no other monsters before me"
-FSM.

Yes, well, the models that I bought off my friend included a unit of morgul ghost riders, so I just decided to stick with that.

your army looks nice!

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Ours is the fury!

Thanks Mastermanje!

Hey guys, I have question regarding the Shade's Chill Miasma and the Spirit Legions battlehost. When you take the battlehost formations that are part of the battlehost are no longer affected by the Shade's rule. What I'm wondering, is, does that extend to any Epic Heroes who join the formation, but are not part of the battlehost?

What I'm really wondering about is whether or not Suladan or Amdur can join a Spectral Host and then run around dueling at his normal Fight 6 while all his opponents are still reduced to Fight 2 because of nearby Shades, or even Fight 1 if Grima is around. That would be pretty fantabulous.

I have a couple more batreps with the Super Friends army I need to get around to putting up (pictures this time!), maybe I'll get around to that pretty soon.

Only those who are part of the battlehosts are not affected udner explained circumstances.

Hilbert is correct. Suladan and Amdur are not part of the battlehost and henceare unaffected by any special bonuses that the host generates.

_________________
"I am the Flying Spagetti Monster. Thou shall have no other monsters before me"
-FSM.

Keep in mind thought that with the Shade's special rule reducing Fight value, even your normal Captains are on equal or better terms with the greatest Epics. I believe it's more of a rule to eliminate someone Dueling your spirits before they can do great damage. One limiting factor of the spirits is that you really want a Captain to be able to ATD and get them in fast. This lets you back them up with some Shades to prevent a foe wiping out large amounts of them with a Dueler.

You also get the bonus dice per Company in combat. This may only be 1 or 2 but when you're striking against Courage that can add up fast.

I think my biggest eye opener to this was when I started playing several games with my Dol Guldur force against our local Dwarf player. I had a few Spirit forces in the mix of typical Mordor unit. Normally the rock solid Dwarves are a real mess in combat and my Moronnan Orc and Mordor Uruks would have about equal value trading blows with them. But as soon as the Spirits ( Ghosts and Casteallans ) reached them the Dwarf formations would start to fall apart, especially if I was able to reduce their Courage by 1 or 2 with some well placed spells. But my biggest complaint was how long it took to get the Spirits into combat. I added a Captain to the Ghosts and that worked great until the Dwarves realized how destructive it can be to duel that Captain and now my Ghosts were several models (or even a Company) short when it came time to fight. I have been considering adding a Shade just to float around as a bodyguard to key Spirit formations.

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Wait ye the finish! The fight is not yours.
Beowulf

http://TacticsInMiniature.com

Hum, well that bums. A bit. My own reasoning was that, based on the wording of the special rule, if an Epic Hero joined a formation which was part of the battle host, he would be subject to all the special rules of the formation, hence subject to any battle host rules affecting that formation. Only while he's a part of it, of course. Basically combining the "Epic Heroes and Special Rules" box on p.69 and the wording of An Army of Ghosts to get to the conclusion "epic heroes in this formation are not subject to Chill Miasma."

Beowulf: I was sort of coming to the same conclusions about Shades. Most of Angmar's formations and heroes don't have the Fight to match the good guys, so the Shade can be a serious help in balancing things out there. Add Terror into the mix and you even can end up with a healthy advantage! Also, the way I typically use my Carn Dum warriors, the unit anyone like Suladan will be in, which is as a flank unit, I can hopefully position them so the enemy are in range of the Shade, but the Carn Dum aren't.

But moving right along:

I'm trying to get a list ready for Forging the Fates. I've got a couple different things I'm trying out and I'm not really sure what to do with some of my points, so I of course I'm throwing ideas up here for you more experienced folkses to have a go at opinionating. A couple of questions regarding my choices for Allies:

I have Gothmog and a fourth Nazgul as pretty definite choices so far.

Problem 1: Which Nazgul? I like The Undying a lot, Khamul is pretty obvious competition for the slot. I also like The Shadow Lord, but with Pall of Darkness around, I'm not sure he's really necessary.

Problem 2: What does everybody think about Ruffians? They have the same Shoot value and Defense as my Angmar Orcs with Bows, but cost half as much. They have Courage 1 and no hero upgrade, but with Gothmog around, unless I come up against The Tainted, it's just not an issue at all. But: do I really need shooting? And even if I do, are Bows the sort of shooting that I really need?

Problem 3: Werewolves. Uruk-Hai Berserkers, Half Trolls seem like good possibilities. But do I really want them at all in a seriously competitive list? Ally points are at a premium for me because that's how I get Epic Heroes.

Problem 4: Grima Wormtongue, Yay or Nay? With the FAQ allowing him the ability to switch formations (Transfix at -2 Courage on 2 formations instead of 1 each turn, for example), and the potential Dueling help he can provide (especially alongside a Shade) to a guy with Epic Strike (Witch-King, Thrydan, Suladan, Amdur, etc.), I think he's almost a must for my army at this point. Especially given the advantages he'll give me against that Super Friends list. -2 to Courage for Terror, and then I call Epic Strike and a Duel against somebody like Radagast, or Gandalf, or Galadriel.... With Grima and a Shade, even Celeborn calling an Epic Strike can only bring the Formation to Fight 1.

Problem 5: What are the best other Epic Heroes to take? Suladan? Or, for the same points, Thrydan and Druzhag? What about Durburz? I don't want to take any hero that I can't make fit thematically with my army, however. And I don't really like Druzhag much for some reason.

I won't have played a great many games by the time the tournament rolls around in a couple of weeks, and most of those will have been against the Super Friends list, which is a very different sort of list from other armies. So I need a little help making an army that isn't built too specifically for beating Super Friends. Here's some stuff I had in the works:

List 1:
Fate: Watcher in the Shadows
Epic Hero: Nazgul (Witch-King)
Epic Hero: Nazgul (The Dwimmerlaik)
Epic Hero: Nazgul (The Tainted)
Common: Spectral Host (2 companies)
Common: Ghostly Legion (2 companies, Captain)
Common: Carn Dum Warriors (5 companies, Captain)
Common: Angmar Orcs (7 companies, Shields, Captain)
Rare: Shade
Legendary: Gulavhar
Ally: Nazgul (The Undying)
Ally: Gothmog, Castellan of Minas Morgul
Ally: Thrydan Wolfsbane
Ally: Druzhag the Beastcaller
Ally: Grima Wormtongue
Ally: Ruffians (4 companies)

List 2:
Fate: Watcher in the Shadows
Epic Hero: Nazgul (Witch-King)
Epic Hero: Nazgul (The Dwimmerlaik)
Epic Hero: Nazgul (The Tainted)
Common: Spectral Host (2 companies)
Common: Ghostly Legion (2 companies, Captain)
Common: Carn Dum Warriors (5 companies, Captain)
Common: Angmar Orcs (7 companies, Shields, Captain)
Rare: Shade
Legendary: Gulavhar
Ally: Nazgul (The Undying)
Ally: Gothmog, Castellan of Minas Morgul
Ally: Suladan, The Serpent King
Ally: Grima Wormtongue
Ally: Ruffians (4 companies)

List 3:
Fate: Watcher in the Shadows
Epic Hero: Nazgul (Witch-King)
Epic Hero: Nazgul (The Dwimmerlaik)
Epic Hero: Nazgul (The Tainted)
Common: Spectral Host (4 companies)
Common: Ghostly Legion (2 companies, Captain)
Common: Carn Dum Warriors (4 companies, Captain)
Common: Angmar Orcs (5 companies, Shields)
Rare: Shade
Legendary: Gulavhar
Ally: Nazgul (Khamul the Easterling)
Ally: Gothmog, Castellan of Minas Morgul
Ally: Suladan, The Serpent King
Ally: Grima Wormtongue

Or possibly something closer to what I've been using recently anyway. I'm even open to the possibility that the Spirit Legions of Angmar Battlehost isn't a lost cause.

For theme purposes, guys like Suladan, Thrydan, and Gothmog have the options of being "Generic King of Carn Dum", "Azog the Orc King", or "Ar-Carangor", the name I've given to the "old barbarian king of Rhudaur, raised from the dead by the witch-king to lead his old hosts in the War of the Ring." Ar-Carangor basically means "Royal Red Horror", or "The Dread King of [Carn]" as in Carn Dum (which means Red Fortress). Ruffians would just be Carn Dum Barbarians with Bows. I think I've been over the other stuff.

Any ideas?

I agree with everything you say, I would use Thrydan's profile for Golfimbul though in my angmar army because orcs and goblins are there. The Ruffians are good iidea, I'm planning on using Gothmog in an Angmar army for a battle this coming saturday. Grima's good to, for justification, he's a Duskwraith. Give your orcs two-handers rather than shields. Druzhag iss good, if you want justification, he's part of the Angmar list in SBG

_________________
"I am the Flying Spagetti Monster. Thou shall have no other monsters before me"
-FSM.

With regards to Golfimbul, maybe Durburz would be a better option? Goblin is a bit closer to Orc, and 2 extra Might for 20pts is...umm....well, not all bad. That pretty much removes Ruffians as a realistic option, of course. I could still take 2 companies of them, but that would be nothing more than a momentary annoyance or a speed bump (these things have their uses as well, of course).

With regards to the Orcs having Shields, to me Defense 5 seems much more of a boon than the other options, since it allows the formation to withstand a lot more attention from my opponents than would otherwise be the case, and it is the formation that I like to throw up in my opponent's face from the get-go, the one I want to put a lot of attention into. It's basically supposed to be a LoS blocker formation to protect all my other units as they get into position. Shields>more companies simply because I don't want to paint that many orcs.

Here's an option: Durburz in lieu of Ruffians and Thrydan, and no Shields on the Orcs, gives me 60pts to work with in List 1. Unfortunately that's not actually very much for Angmar, unless I just add a companies of Men and Orcs.

True, and it makes a heck of a lot more sense than Misty Mountains lists with him and his Blackshields along with Durbuurz...

Orkdom, shields do make Orcs toughr but not that much tougher. However, 2HW often makes them hit twice as hard and make a real difference against anything that is particulary high defense.

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http://www.roughwotr.blogspot.com

Xelee it's a bit more subtle than that, the best choice depend on your opponents army. If you are likely to be in fighting Def7 WoMT then 2HW are a better bet from 1/6 wound to 1/3, twice as good, while the WoMT inflict 1/2 wounds instead of 1/3, not as big a difference.
However if your opponent has a lot of bow its not so good, from 1/6th to 1/3rd, at any range, 1/3rd losses a turn from cheap bow is a deadly, those 2HW are no good if you don't even get into contact.
Now if it's Elves (using the longbow no shields house rule) then take 2HW all the time.
One of the reasons why we have dropped that house rule and made elf longbow strength 3 instead. Elf bow is now better v everything not just shielded troops, also the biggest gripe that you could out shoot them with cheap orc bow has been solved.
A fluffy alternative for Angmar 2HW, would be allied Dunland Huscarls with 2HW. Barbarians, strength 4 or 5, and less vulnerable to bow fire and str3 troops, for only 5pts more than orcs. Carn Dum warband with Dane Axes.

Golfimbul as Durburz does make sense. But if you use Golfimbul be wary of hobbits with clubs and rabbit holes

Also, you could use 60pts of wags. They go nicely in Angmar, they can be used as a distraction, or you could keep it in one of the flanks.

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"I am the Flying Spagetti Monster. Thou shall have no other monsters before me"
-FSM.

maybe call a hero the dead king Argaleb I, and maybe you can callone formations of ghosts "The Dead Kings of Arnor", because angmar took the barrowdowns

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Ours is the fury!

There's no need to do that because you have Barrow-wights which are knoown as a Court of Fallen Kings.

_________________
"I am the Flying Spagetti Monster. Thou shall have no other monsters before me"
-FSM.

Most of what I play is RAW and and I'd still recommend the 2HW. Since these is an evil list, Orcs will no difficulty getting into close combat. However, there isn't a defense 5 troop in this game that enjoys being hit by bowfire so this is a poor role for Orcs. What the Orcs should be doing when not getting into CC on their own terms is letting tougher troops take the hit. With bows or 2HW, they genuinely add something extra to the list.

YMMV

As an aside, Dunland Huscarls (and Axemen of Lossarnach, and Blackshields, and Corsair Arbalests and...) are a good illustration why Glabro's suggestion that allies have to take into account the 'decree of rarity' and come all from the one list is a good one. Otherwise, we have better Berserkers for a lower cost.

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http://www.roughwotr.blogspot.com

THe only real reason to take ordinary orcs w shields is too satisfy theme or because you don't have other models.

_________________
"I am the Flying Spagetti Monster. Thou shall have no other monsters before me"
-FSM.

Regarding Wargs: That's 60pts of Allies I don't have to spend, plus if I'm taking Druzhag I don't really need to pay for them, do I?

Regarding Orcs and Shields: The reason I take them with shields is because they are typically the unit I throw out in front of everything else. I don't necessarily need them to shrug off bow fire, I just need them to not die off at too quickly a pace. Shields slow the pace, whereas Bows and 2HW do not, so why should I pay the points for such things? I see the logic behind 2HW in combat, so I'll try them out sometime soon. But the +2 Def from the shields feels the most useful upgrade for my purposes.

I was using Blackshields, but they're allies, which hampers my ability to take guys like Gothmog and an extra Nazgul. With Angmar, I really don't have any tougher options within my own list unless I want to use the more expensive barbarians for this task, and I prefer to use them to do the killing (which they're good at) once I reach the enemy. Their cost and hitting power make them much more useful when I don't use them as speed-bump-bowfodder, in my opinion. For the Orcs, I also get more companies for the same cost, which makes the formation more durable overall.

I was trying to make the Spirit Legions Battlehost work things out once or twice but that was just a bad idea. Def 6 Ghosts are cool, but horrendously expensive. Which is very unfortunate because honestly those are the units I like and I wish I could use more of them in a really competitive list. Them and Spectres.

So there's my dilemma. The higher Def formations available to me are either way more expensive or way more useful in other ways than Angmar Orcs. Those formations that are both equally cost effective and higher Def are not from the Angmar faction, and pinch my already tight limit on Allies, which is the only way for me to get more than 2 cost effective heroes. I've settled on Angmar Orcs with Shields because they're both cheap and naturally available in the Angmar list. They may not do as well against bows as some other choices out there, but it's what I've got. (Also, as Gothmog points out, I have a total of 7 orcs with bows. Not really an honest option! 2HW are still a go, however.)

Semi-New List(s)!

Fate: Watcher in the Shadows
Epic Hero: Nazgul (Witch-King)
Epic Hero: Nazgul (The Dwimmerlaik)
Epic Hero: Nazgul (The Tainted)
Common: Spectral Host (2 companies)
Common: Ghostly Legion (2 companies, Captain)
Common: Carn Dum Warriors (5 companies, Captain)
Common: Angmar Orcs (8 companies, Shields, Captain)
Rare: Shade
Legendary: Gulavhar
Ally: Nazgul (The Undying/Khamul the Easterling??)
Ally: Gothmog, Castellan of Minas Morgul
Ally: Durburz, Goblin King of Moria
Ally: Druzhag the Beastcaller
Ally: Grima Wormtongue

Or:
Fate: Watcher in the Shadows
Epic Hero: Nazgul (Witch-King)
Epic Hero: Nazgul (The Dwimmerlaik)
Epic Hero: Nazgul (The Tainted)
Common: Ghostly Riders (3 companies, Captain)
Common: Carn Dum Warriors (5 companies, Captain)
Common: Angmar Orcs (7 companies, Shields, Captain)
Rare: The Court of Fallen Kings/Barrow Wights
Rare: Shade
Legendary: Gulavhar
Ally: Nazgul (The Undying/Khamul the Easterling??)
Ally: Gothmog, Castellan of Minas Morgul
Ally: Durburz, Goblin King of Moria
Ally: Druzhag the Beastcaller
Ally: Grima Wormtongue

I'm torn. I really want to use Spectral Hosts because I want to put those models on the table. But are they worth their cost? I'm not sure. Also I'm wondering if Cavalry are important enough that I should work to find room for them in the list. More and more of this army becomes models I haven't finished painting and have less motivation to work on, which is annoying. By this I mean orcs. I am not so fond of painting a lot of Mordor Orcs. Anyhow. I'm going to go and work on getting all the pictures from my last couple games uploaded so I can actually do those batreps before I completely forget what happened in them. Maybe I'll even post something on them!