The One Ring :: View topic - Glorfindel in a duel

I think he does get the bonus for the glaive as thats what he weilds and also it would fit with the spirit of the game IMO.

It seems GW wrote the rules with more grey areas than an elven cloak! :lol:

Still if you take Glorfindel, take inner glory too, then heroic challange the biggest, nastiest thing in the enemy army

(doing this means he can kill a Balrog like he does in the books

)

This does need adding to an FAQ and I have done so, but going back on the logic issue, if Glorfindel gets a +1F for a glaive then why doesn't Elrond or Arwen or any of the other elves? They are not going to fight unarmed but would have their own elven blades.

No, the description of a heroic brawl :p where weapon bonuses have no effect and Glorfidel being his own formation is proof to me that Glorfidel would not get a bonus.

Ok, Khand kings are monsters and have two-handed weapons, if what you say is true then how do you handle them? -1F but no +1 To Hit, as they don't roll To Hit in Heroic Duels? That don't seem fair or logical to me.

For the Kings it would be relatively simple... Just +1 to the dice rolled on the heroic duel table, carrying the theme of harder to win a fight, easier to kill when you do!!

Quote:

For the Kings it would be relatively simple... Just +1 to the dice rolled on the heroic duel table, carrying the theme of harder to win a fight, easier to kill when you do!!

Thats not in the rules though.

hithero wrote:

Quote:

For the Kings it would be relatively simple... Just +1 to the dice rolled on the heroic duel table, carrying the theme of harder to win a fight, easier to kill when you do!!

Thats not in the rules though.

You got me, but when have GW rules been inconsistant? As i said, it makes no sense for a hero not to be able to use his personal weapons, and as RAW go there is nothing saying he can't.

Brutoni wrote:

hithero wrote:

Quote:

For the Kings it would be relatively simple... Just +1 to the dice rolled on the heroic duel table, carrying the theme of harder to win a fight, easier to kill when you do!!

Thats not in the rules though.

You got me, but when have GW rules been inconsistant? As i said, it makes no sense for a hero not to be able to use his personal weapons, and as RAW go there is nothing saying he can't.

GW uses a permissive rules set. If it doesn't say he can, he can't.

Author:	Lord Jimbo [ Sun May 10, 2009 5:33 pm ]
Post subject:	Glorfindel in a duel
hey wanted some clarification, glorfindels profile give's him a glaive but the rules say that when a duel happens all the companies special weapons do not effect the duel (ie lurtz in a company of pikes does not get the plus one in a duel) but since glorfindel is a monster does this change any thing. i don't think he gets the glaive bonus in a duel. and on another note while i have your attention if lurtz calls an epic strike then issues a duel is his fight value considered 10, i think it is but what do you all think

Author:	Brutoni [ Sun May 10, 2009 5:49 pm ]
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Not sure about Glorfindal. As to the other, the rules only state that unit formation's special weapons have no effect on the duel. If you imagine this then basically the two heroes are going at it hammer and tongs and no one else can interfier and thus bring their weapons into play. However normally against another company a unit with lurtz and pikes will line up and strike with the pikes, allowing lurtz to gain the benefit of being with pikes and vice versa. The pikes hit the enemy and then lurtz lends his might to the fight. As regards spells, epic actions etc. They are the focus, target of the hero itself and as such they are going to still be present during the duel. I would imagine then that Lurtz can call an improvement to Fight 10 and then fight a heroic duel... Of course that raises the question about multiple might actions per phase and per turn, being discussed in the forum. However given that in the SBG you can spend multiple points of might per turn to call a variety of different actions (Heroic Move, Heroic Fight and even up the dice roll for Heroic fights etc) then i would hazard a guess that you can in WotR. Otherwise the epic heroes are not quite so epic. Given Glorfindal is a monster and given that he has a weapon himself, then i would add his Fight value to the Heroic duel... Afterall he isn't relying on some other warrior to give him support with the weapon, it's in his hands and as Lurtz runs towards him Glorfindal is going to kill him with it. Though glorfindal is capable of killing Lurtz without it anyway, if he is used right. (Terror and light of the Valar is always fun)

Author:	Lord Jimbo [ Sun May 10, 2009 6:05 pm ]
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i'm a firm believer that you can call multiple heroic actions but that is another post but lurtz could call his epic strike and someone could challenge him (would be stupid but if it doesn't apply to duels it would be smart) would he benefit from the special rule. my concern with glorfindel is in the epic heroes section it says the hero is assumed to have a bow if he joins a regiment of archers or a pike if he joins a regiment of pikes but eh leaves those weapons behind when he fights a duel.

Author:	hithero [ Sun May 10, 2009 7:16 pm ]
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A heroes weapons do not effect duels according to the rules.

Author:	Brutoni [ Sun May 10, 2009 8:28 pm ]
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Actually it doesn't say that... It says "It should be noted that Heroes do not receive any modifiers for the wargear of [i]their[/u] company. The duels inevitably decend into instinctive brawls where there is little time to bring a pike or two handed weapon to bear - raw skill is everything." Page 67 WotR BR. Now the last part of that can probably be ignored, it is simply stated as fluff and plenty of heroes only use a two handed weapon in combat (Troll chief, most dwarf captains, elf captains, Elrond, Gimli... the list goes on) it is probably just GW being fluffy in explaining the rules. The first part is what is important and it states the wargear of their company. Epic heroes or normal heroes do not count as being armed with individual wargear (they pilfer what is in the formation), however a Monsterous hero has a specific weapon that belongs to him/her/it. Glorfindal is stated as a Monsterous hero and in my opinion it seems stupid that he would fight with his bare hands (he has no other weapons) instead of his elven sword (glave).... So as rules are written it says nothing about Glorfindal (or other monsterous heroes) not getting to use weapons. The rules from common sense suggest that individual weapons on monsterous heroes or individual heroes should be taken into account. The rules as intended... Not so sure on that one and personally i think this is the most important view of the rules, as one should really try and play the game as intended. But as written, says nothing against monsterous heroes using weapons... Only heroes using their companies weapons.

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Glorfindel in a duel http://test.one-ring.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=88&t=15117	Page 1 of 2

Author:	Lord Jimbo [ Sun May 10, 2009 8:51 pm ]
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yeah i must have ignored the "war gear" of the company but now that you point it out it makes sense thanx.

Author:	hithero [ Sun May 10, 2009 8:57 pm ]
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Glorfindel is a company even by himself. The last paragraph on page 67 say's heroes don't use their companies weapons, and descends into a brawl where there is little time to bring a pike etc etc. Seems pretty clear to me that heroes do not use any weapons mods. Whats the difference in a hero being armed with a Glaive and using somebody else's? Either both can or both can't and the rules say can't.

Author:	Brutoni [ Sun May 10, 2009 9:05 pm ]
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The difference is in the way the rules are written. A heroic monsterous creature is a company but counts as a hero for the purposes of a duel. As such given the rules as written, there is nothing to say a Hero cannot use HIS/HER PERSONAL WEAPONS. The rules stop them using the companies special weapons, not their own. There is a difference in the english language there and it is a massive one. I'm sorry but thats just a simple fact. The RAW say nothing about a case like Glorfindals. As such if your opponent disagrees with you roll a dice, however from a common sense point of view a personal weapon on the hero is going to be used in a fight... Unless your heroes of middle earth all lay aside the weapons they have trained to fight with in places of fists, daggers, and hand swords/axes. Which is just silly to be frank. Now i can understand them not getting to use the companies bonus, as i said they company don't get involved in the heroic duel so the hero doesn't have some nutter with a pike or spear to stab anyone near him, thus he doesn't get the benefits of the weapon... For rules as intended... As i said, don't know what the devs intended with Glorfindal, i like the idea of him, but he hasn't been executed well and we need an FAQ to clear these questions up.

Author:	Azure Rathalos [ Sun May 10, 2009 9:10 pm ]
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I think he does get the bonus for the glaive as thats what he weilds and also it would fit with the spirit of the game IMO. It seems GW wrote the rules with more grey areas than an elven cloak! Still if you take Glorfindel, take inner glory too, then heroic challange the biggest, nastiest thing in the enemy army (doing this means he can kill a Balrog like he does in the books )

Author:	hithero [ Sun May 10, 2009 9:17 pm ]
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This does need adding to an FAQ and I have done so, but going back on the logic issue, if Glorfindel gets a +1F for a glaive then why doesn't Elrond or Arwen or any of the other elves? They are not going to fight unarmed but would have their own elven blades. No, the description of a heroic brawl :p where weapon bonuses have no effect and Glorfidel being his own formation is proof to me that Glorfidel would not get a bonus. Ok, Khand kings are monsters and have two-handed weapons, if what you say is true then how do you handle them? -1F but no +1 To Hit, as they don't roll To Hit in Heroic Duels? That don't seem fair or logical to me.

Author:	Brutoni [ Sun May 10, 2009 9:21 pm ]
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Azure Rathalos wrote: I think he does get the bonus for the glaive as thats what he weilds and also it would fit with the spirit of the game IMO. It seems GW wrote the rules with more grey areas than an elven cloak! Still if you take Glorfindel, take inner glory too, then heroic challange the biggest, nastiest thing in the enemy army (doing this means he can kill a Balrog like he does in the books ) Oh i overlooked that fortune... hmmm inner glory with an all elven based army... the potential for some seriously evil charges does exist. Shame you can't give him Hero of the Hour, +1 fight and +1 courage, coupled with the Glave would go nicely for a Fight of 9 and Courage of 6... Truly making him the Hero of the hour!!! Can you take the same fortune twice, i just scanned the fortune/fate rule section and can't find anything saying you can't. I really didn't know whether or not to take Glorfindal for my Rivendell/Lothlorien army, but i am seriously considering taking him to be honest... We shall see, i'll most likely get all the big elven heroes to add to my collection of captains and then pick the heroes depending on the game.

Author:	Brutoni [ Sun May 10, 2009 9:26 pm ]
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hithero wrote: This does need adding to an FAQ and I have done so, but going back on the logic issue, if Glorfindel gets a +1F for a glaive then why doesn't Elrond or Arwen or any of the other elves? They are not going to fight unarmed but would have their own elven blades. No, the description of a heroic brawl :p where weapon bonuses have no effect and Glorfidel being his own formation is proof to me that Glorfidel would not get a bonus. Ok, Khand kings are monsters and have two-handed weapons, if what you say is true then how do you handle them? -1F but no +1 To Hit, as they don't roll To Hit in Heroic Duels? That don't seem fair or logical to me. The other elven heroes don't say they carry Glaves, it is entirely reasonable that they carry elven swords that are simply hand weapons (like the one Arwen has at the Ford... it has a smaller handle so can't be used with the nice fluid movements that a hand and a half grip allow...[i know i study a variety of fighting arts and eastern grips are far easy to move fluidly with in general]) Thus they are not going to get a benefit. For the Kings it would be relatively simple... Just +1 to the dice rolled on the heroic duel table, carrying the theme of harder to win a fight, easier to kill when you do!! However i agree this is all strictly our own derivitations, assumptions. A solid FAQ from GW would make me a happy man, i don't mind which they pick so long as the address such an obvious question... Perhaps i'll email the team, maybe they might be so nice as to explain the situation to me even if they won't FAQ... It would also add to their awareness of the situation (they can't post an FAQ if no one tells them about the questions )

Author:	hithero [ Sun May 10, 2009 9:34 pm ]
Post subject:
Quote: For the Kings it would be relatively simple... Just +1 to the dice rolled on the heroic duel table, carrying the theme of harder to win a fight, easier to kill when you do!! Thats not in the rules though.

Author:	Brutoni [ Mon May 11, 2009 12:09 am ]
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hithero wrote: Quote: For the Kings it would be relatively simple... Just +1 to the dice rolled on the heroic duel table, carrying the theme of harder to win a fight, easier to kill when you do!! Thats not in the rules though. You got me, but when have GW rules been inconsistant? As i said, it makes no sense for a hero not to be able to use his personal weapons, and as RAW go there is nothing saying he can't.

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Author:	King Under the Mountain [ Mon May 11, 2009 5:43 am ]
Post subject:
Brutoni wrote: hithero wrote: Quote: For the Kings it would be relatively simple... Just +1 to the dice rolled on the heroic duel table, carrying the theme of harder to win a fight, easier to kill when you do!! Thats not in the rules though. You got me, but when have GW rules been inconsistant? As i said, it makes no sense for a hero not to be able to use his personal weapons, and as RAW go there is nothing saying he can't. GW uses a permissive rules set. If it doesn't say he can, he can't.

Author:	Brutoni [ Mon May 11, 2009 8:20 am ]
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King Under the Mountain wrote: Brutoni wrote: hithero wrote: Quote: For the Kings it would be relatively simple... Just +1 to the dice rolled on the heroic duel table, carrying the theme of harder to win a fight, easier to kill when you do!! Thats not in the rules though. You got me, but when have GW rules been inconsistant? As i said, it makes no sense for a hero not to be able to use his personal weapons, and as RAW go there is nothing saying he can't. GW uses a permissive rules set. If it doesn't say he can, he can't. If you expect me not to try and explain or discuss my reasoning and thoughts about the rules everytime someone says no then its probably just as well we are unlikely to ever play a game together Of course, you will find in one of my recent posts on the site me sayign that if someone doesn't like something either roll for it or let it go. The rules will never cover every eventuality and you will have to sort it out with your opponent.... Hehe, i remember some very heated and vivid discussions with my best friend when our Eldar and Dark Eldar met on the battlefield. It was always sorted in the end though!!