Rolls on the Heroic Duel Table

daersalon · **Joined:** Wed Mar 16, 2011 1:34 am **Posts:** 265

Other threads made me look at the Heroic Duel table and rules.

We have been playing that if a Hero say wins a duel by (say) 5 and gets 5 rolls on the Duel Table. The we roll each dice individually, so if in my example the hero was duelling a captain with Resilience 2 and we roll:
1. a 3 - formation takes d3 hits
2. a 6 - formation takes d3 hits and the hero takes d3 hits. In this case we roll a 1 and the enemy captain has 1 resilience left in this duel.
3. a 1 - a miss
4. a 5 - success one more wound polishes off the captain.

Then we have the fifth potential die... At this point we just stopped as the Hero is dead, and the fifth die is unneccessary to determine duel results (the duel is over). [This also stops heroes winning a duel by huge scores using ES and decimating units with overkill] (The other way would be to roll all 5 dice up front and work out the overall results.)

I felt sure I had read that was how it was handled, but now I can't see where I had that impression from. It feels right as it means a Heroic duel is just that a fight between heroes, and any additional casualties are incidental to the main event.

daersalon · **Joined:** Wed Mar 16, 2011 1:34 am **Posts:** 265

Addendum, I guess it might be from the example on p67 where it says the Gondor Capatain rolls 3 times on the table, not rolling 3 dice then consulting the table... But seems a bit woolly still, is there anything more concrete anywhere?

Beowulf03809 · **Posted:** Wed Sep 14, 2011 2:23 pm

That's not official as far as I know but I like it as a house rule for balancing Duels out if you're really finding them to be a problem locally. In the flavor text it does say that the Formation damage is from the Hero trying to cut his way thru to the other Hero so it could "end" with the death of a Hero and just ignore any left over dice. Unless you consider that the winning Hero needs to cut his way back thru the enemy Formation to get to his own...

Officially I believe you calculate your total number of dice from the win and then roll each one individually and consult the table. Once the Hero is dead you obviously ignore any "Hero takes" results but all Formation damaging results still get applied regardless of the Hero's death.

Erunion · **Posted:** Wed Sep 14, 2011 3:49 pm

We have always played out all of the dice, even if the Hero is already dead.

ForgottenLore · **Joined:** Sun Mar 27, 2011 10:47 pm **Posts:** 491

Yeah, the rules don't say anything about stopping, you roll all the dice and apply all the results.

A lot of people seem to get the duel table and the Hard to Kill tables confused though. I have seen a lot of people want to roll the duel table one at a time because of the rule on the HtK tables.

Hashut's Blessing · **Joined:** Fri Jan 15, 2010 8:41 pm **Posts:** 1279

As said, roll one at a time as you have been - it affects the next roll, so makes a big difference. You still roll everything - obviously, you can;t kill the hero any more, but it can represent the process of getting to or from the duel and killing people in the way.

ForgottenLore · **Joined:** Sun Mar 27, 2011 10:47 pm **Posts:** 491

Hashut's Blessing wrote:

roll one at a time as you have been - it affects the next roll, so makes a big difference.

No, rolls on the duel table have no effect on the next roll, there is no reason not to roll them all at once.

It is the Hard to Kill tables that have to be done one at a time.

daersalon · **Joined:** Wed Mar 16, 2011 1:34 am **Posts:** 265

ForgottenLore wrote:

No, rolls on the duel table have no effect on the next roll, there is no reason not to roll them all at once.

It is the Hard to Kill tables that have to be done one at a time.

Ho Hum. Agreed, though it seemed to make sense if you only rolled until the hero was slain.

If I have the situation again I had last week where Saruman and the Uruk formation were at Fight 0 due to Terror and Boromir's formation charged in and Epic Duelled him, where Saruman rolled a 3 and Boromir 6... That will be 14 (0 + 3 vs 10 +1 +6 )rolls on the Duel table... ouch. Like I said so far we stopped when the hero died. Time to be even more circumspect with the White One....

Beowulf03809 · **Posted:** Thu Sep 15, 2011 10:01 am

There have been a lot of discussions around here regarding the game impact of Epic Strike / Heroic Duels. Yes, you will have some events like you describe that will be on the extremes. But as you play more games and you and your opponent(s) adapt your tactics you will probably find that these are not as common after a while.

The "adapt your tactics" is probably the biggest factor though. All the Wizards, and most spell users in general, have a low Fight value and are good targets for duels (the Nazgul being the biggest exception I can think of). So if you have Saruman in a big formation of Uruk Hai with little to no Hero support and let them get charged by a good dueler than you will probably have this happen again. You will need to look at ways to isolate him from the risk of being dueled. This may be keeping his formation buffered from the dueler's formation, or placing a counter-dueler in with him.

One option you could consider would be to modify an Uruk Hai Captain or Berserker model, identify him as a chief leader Saruman created (what Lurtz was to his Scouts, this is the same to the fighting Uruk Hai) and play with with the points and profile of either Gothmog or Amdur...obviously accounting for the Ally points. This is perfectly legal, can be themed fairly well and provides a great counter dueler and bodyguard to Saruman. An enemy player will think twice about dueling him with a potential counter dueler of that caliber in there, and and Uruk-Amdur would make a very potent member of your force.

Hashut's Blessing · **Joined:** Fri Jan 15, 2010 8:41 pm **Posts:** 1279

ForgottenLore wrote:

Hashut's Blessing wrote:

roll one at a time as you have been - it affects the next roll, so makes a big difference.

No, rolls on the duel table have no effect on the next roll, there is no reason not to roll them all at once.

It is the Hard to Kill tables that have to be done one at a time.

My apologies - confused myself somehow (wow, how tired must I have been? lol).

You simply roll all the dice at once: if the hero is slain, the other rolls aren't suddenly discounted...

daersalon · **Joined:** Wed Mar 16, 2011 1:34 am **Posts:** 265

I have fielded the White Handed one about a score of times and only been duelled about half a dozen of those successfully. But that was more circumstances than design. The example I gave though was about the most extreme i have seen myself, and i see now my uruks should have taken more hits, and my army will of course adapt again.

I was toying with the idea of a bodyguard. Amdur or Gothmog are nice ideas and taken as alternate Isengard Heroes (allied points of course). Though I actually rarely take Lurtz who gets ES and has that Assassins shot which would scare the willies out of an enemy duellist so he might do too. I have gotten away with light defence with Saruman before now, but in more serious games I don't think I can rely on it.

One thing that does seem mildly surprising is Saruman having Epic Challenge. I can only think one would use it to take out enemy Shamen or weak wizards. I really don't want to be committing a major hero but weak fighter like Saruman to the vaguaries of a duel if I can help it. The +1 for initiating can give a mild edge say over Gandalf the Grey but its still too risky in my opinion.

Hashut's Blessing · **Joined:** Fri Jan 15, 2010 8:41 pm **Posts:** 1279

Epic Challeneg, I suppose, is to represent the tapestry of linguistics that he lays down. He brings a formation out of your opponent's lines and can help to disrupt them.

ForgottenLore · **Joined:** Sun Mar 27, 2011 10:47 pm **Posts:** 491

daersalon wrote:

Ho Hum. Agreed, though it seemed to make sense if you only rolled until the hero was slain.

That is a fairly reasonable house rule, I would fully support it in my group, but it is a house rule.

Rolls on the Heroic Duel Table

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