OK, looks like we are going to need a separate thread for this.

For the benefit of anyone who wasn't following the "How to kill a Dragon" thread, I am quoting the posts from that thread that lead to this one. After the summary quotations there is a large, bolded sentence indicating where actual new material begins for those that want to skip right to the new material.






OK, summary of stuff so that this thread makes sense is now out of the way, moving on to actual response.



Yes, that is exactly what I have been saying. Epic Strike and similar actions are called when the formation is "due to act" when it gets focus as you say. When a player says "OK, let's resolve this fight now, any heroes involved in that fight then have the chance to call Epic Strike and similar actions. What I have been saying, and at this point I don't know if you agree with me or not, is that they CAN'T call ES before that point. The formation has not yet gotten focus, is not yet due to act, and so the action can't be called.


No. Epic Strike is called when the formation gets focus, as you say, but Heroic Duel, like all heroic actions, can ONLY be called at the start of the phase. The rulebook is VERY clear on that. You call Heroic Duels, then the start of phase is over and the players move on to resolving specific fights (either duels or combats). It is at that point that particular heroes and/or formations get focus, are "due to act", and that is when they can call Epic Strike.


Let me finish with an example,

You have 2 formations of goblins that were charged in the charge phase, creating 2 separate combats, one with Durburz and one with Druzhag. You know that in the fight phase you want to use an Epic Strike Durburz to duel a Gondorian captain. You also think your opponent is going to Duel Druzhag with an Epic Strike Aragorn and would like to use Epic Cowardice to get your hero out of there.

Then the fight phase begins. Nobody can call Epic Strike right now because neither of the two fights has focus, it is just the start of the phase. That is when duels and Cowardice are called however, so if either player wishes to use one of those abilities, he has to be now. Both players declare their wish to use might and so they roll off, the Gondorian player wins the dice off and declares Epic Duel against Druzhag (note that Epic Duel says it works exactly like Heroic Duel except for the extra die, so it also can only be called at the start of the phase), then you call Heroic Duel with Durburz, targeting the Gondorian captain. The Gondorian player is done spending might at the start of the phase and since Druzhag can't escape the duel you opt to not call the Epic Cowardice and say you are done as well. None of the heroes have called Epic Strike yet because none of them have received focus yet, they have only declared that they are using a couple actions.

Once the players are done spending might at the start of the phase, those actions begin to actually resolve in the order they were called, so Aragorn and Druzhag fight a duel (sorry Druzhag). At this point Aragorn and Druzhag are both due to act, or "get focus" as you said and they both have an opportunity to call actions like Epic Strike that are called "when the formation is due to act". Druzhag has no such actions and so can't call anything, no roll off is required, and Aragorn now calls Epic Strike. Then ES resolves, Argorn's Fight goes up to 10 and the players continue with the duel (and Druzhag goes squish). Durburz can't do anything right now because the focus still isn't on him, the focus is on Aragorn and Druzhag until the duel is over.

Once the duel is over, however, focus goes to Durburz, who then has a chance to call his own Epic Strike and beat up a Gondorian Captain.

In summary, Heroic Duels can only be called at the start of the Fight Phase, before any hero or formation gets focus. Once all those actions have been called they begin to be resolved and then Heroes will get focus and have a chance to call Epic Strike and similar actions. Once that occurs however, the start of phase is over and there is no more opportunity to call a duel that turn, making it impossible to call a duel after an Epic Strike has been called.

Sorry for the super long post, but this is an important point. It DOES make a difference to game flow, because if players have to call duels and strikes at the same time then Epic cowardice can always save a hero from a duel and an opponent could preempt the Epic Strike half the time by calling his own duel before the Strike gets called

Can we have a shorter summary, please? It's all very confusing.

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"There are few left in Middle Earth like Aragorn, son of Arathorn." - Gandalf, Many Meetings

In short, heroic actions and epic actions have a set order, based on who called it first.

example:
If Kardush is fighting Thryden:
Thryden calls an heroic challenge, Kardush calls an epic cowardice, you have to roll to see which action takes place first.

Same with epic strikes and epic challenges etc etc

I think that;s what he is saying...

Could you specify what you find confusing?

The post starts with a big block of quotes from the other thread that I say right at the beginning you can skip if you have been reading the other thread.

There is great big bolded text after that that says "this is where the real content starts" (upon reflection I should have made the summary quotes one post and the new content a second post. Other boards where it is VERY taboo to double post have trained me to not do that sort of thing though)

Then there is one short paragraph where I explain how Actions that are called "when the hero is due to act" (or when the hero gets focus, as daersalon put it) are not called at the start of the phase.

Then there is a second short paragraph where I explain how this means that Epic Strike is only called once a Heroic Duel begins, the two of them never get called at the same time so you never have to dice off to see which of those 2 get called first.

Then there is an admittedly somewhat complicated example, but the example should make perfect sense once you have read the other 2 paragraphs.

Then I have a paragraph that starts with "In summary" that summarizes the whole thing in 3 sentences.

Then I explain how this is important because it effects whether people get hit with Epic Strike duels or are able escape with Epic Cowardice.

So what was confusing to you?

@Naresh, there is no heroic challenge in the game, do you mean Epic Challenge or Heroic Duel?. Also, Epic Challenge is called in the move phase while Epic Strike is called in the Fight phase, so why is anyone rolling to see which of those goes first?

This is exactly the kind of thing I am talking about. People only read what the various actions do, not when they can be used and get confused about how the whole thing works when it is actually very simple.

e.g. 1. Formation is to have it's own fight resolved: Player A calls heroic Duel and then Epic Strike. The Duel is resolved with the Fight 10 then the fight itself. This is the typical use.
but this is fine too:
e.g. 2. Formation is to have it's own fight resolved: Player A calls Epic Strike with an Epic Hero, and then Heroic duel with a captain against an enemy captain. (the ES doesnt help the captain of course)
and a step further:
e.g. 3. Formation is to have it's own fight resolved: Player A calls Epic Strike with an Epic Hero, and then Heroic duel with a captain against an enemy captain, then decides to have the epic hero with ES active call a heroic duel against another enemy Epic Hero.

ok im confused too !! i understand eg 1 thats how we play , but eg 2 and 3 i dont understand. Why cant the captain benifit from the epic strike, doesnt that effect the whole company?. and shouldnt heroic duel be called first ? sorry to be dragging this up again i followed the link posted by forgottonlore from the thread i started GOTHMOG master of battle.

The captain doesn't benefit from the Epic Strike because Epic Strike raises the Fight value of the Hero that called it to 10, it does nothing to the Captain. The hero's company gets to use the highest fight value in the company to determine its battle skill modifier when it resolves its fight and that has nothing to do with any duels that have been fought.




Not only should the duel be called first, but the duel should be getting called at the start of the phase and Epic Strike should not be getting called until the hero is actually due to fight the duel (when the hero "gets focus" as daersalon put it). The two abilities are called at completely different points in the fight phase. That is the whole point of this thread, to try and explain that concept. daersalon and I were going back and forth in the dragon thread for a while and it seemed like the topic needed a thread of its own, and then no one seemed interested in continuing the discussion.

So many people seem to disagree with me that I would think it was me doing it wrong, but the rules are so clear and so simple (to me, at least) that I just can't understand how anyone can be misinterpreting them, let alone as many people who seem to be and I don't know how to explain it any clearer. I asked General Elessar to clarify what about the post he found confusing but he never replied, Xelee and I have gone round and round on this a couple times but sometimes he and I seem to disagree on everything so I'm not surprised he hasn't chimed in (Hi Xelee!! ). I wish I could figure out what people's confusion is when it comes to the timing of abilities so that I could figure out a way to explain it better because I feel that understanding the timing of H/E actions is one of the most important rules in making a game of WotR run quickly and smoothly.

Sorry, that was a bit of a rant/whine.

In my view, and I believe FL's, all of those examples are incorrect. The timing of the actions, specifically the heroic ones, are being called at the wrong time.
HEROIC ACTIONs are called at the start of the phase, not before the hero or formation is due to act. EPIC ACTIONs are called at more specific times, in most cases before the epic is to act, either individually or in a duel( singularly).

Example: one evil epic, one good epic and a good captain begin the fight phase with their formations in contact and good has priority. Actions on both sides wish to be called. Roll off to determine which sides goes first. Evil epic loses. Good captain calls heroic duel vs evil epic, evil epic cells heroic duel against captain, good epic declares duel against evil epic.
Evil epic calls epic strike and survives duel with good captain. Evil epic's duel against good epic begins with f10 in effect. Good epic then calls epic strike.

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richmondwarmancers we play Lord of The Rings, Battlefleet Gothic, Infinity, some board games, and really whatever tickles our fancy..

DOCdeath, I do not see how so many people seem to think that if a Hero calls ES then every hero in his company also gets it, this is not the case as stated above. I played against someone who thought it was this way and so thought that his heroes and magicians were safe as long as they had a hero with ES in their company.

About the discussion in general, I used to think that all heroic and epic actions that take place in the same phase take place at he same time. However, I think that Heroic actions and some epic actions are callled at the beginninng of the phase and the rest of the epic actions are called when the hero's turn to act. With Epic Rampage for example, that is when the hero is to act, with REpic Duel that is at the start odf the phase. With Epic Strike, I do not think that it matters when it is called.

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"I am the Flying Spagetti Monster. Thou shall have no other monsters before me"
-FSM.

Didn't read the entire thing yet, this is as far as I got, but the FAQ means any effect that would lower the Fight value back down, and he specifcally said the Shade has that ability. I don't think he was talking about EA effects, just effects in general. I could be wrong, but whatever.

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"Leave Sauron to me."
If you're in the Raleigh, NC area, let me know.

He was talking about how effects in general would interact with Epic Strike. The quote in the FAQ indicates that the only effect (that manipulates Fight value) that can happen after an Epic Strike has been called is the shade because that ability is "always on". The point I was trying to make is that that means Epic Strike (and be extension the other Epic Actions like it) is called at a specific time "when the hero is due to act", not whenever the player wants to use it as you indicated.


Honestly, I am not even sure who is arguing what anymore. The entire conversation (across 2 threads) has become hopelessly confusing but...

From my point of view there are 2 way that people seem to get confused about Epic actions

1) They think that Epic actions are all called at the start of the phase like Heroic Actions. That is pretty easy to prove wrong but I CONSTANTLY see people start the fight phase and say "OK, now I am spending 2 might to call Epic Strike and Heroic Duel", which isn't right.

Or

2) They think that Epic actions can be called whenever, and just happen instantly upon declaration and so don't use a queue to resolve. This is also wrong but seems to be a lot harder to explain.

In fact they are just called at a time other than the start of the phase, but still a particular time: When the hero is due to act. If Heroes from both sides are due to act at the same time, in the fight phase when the combat they are in is due to start for instance, then they may both want to declare actions at the same time and you still need to roll off to see who picks first and then alternate picking actions and create an order in which they resolve.

By "when he wants to use it" I meant when it comes to his formations time to do what ever he was going to do with it. I'm pretty sure I made my self clear about that somewhere, at least correcting how I said it.

"in the fight phase when the combat they are in is due to start for instance, then they may both want to declare actions at the same time and you still need to roll off to see who picks first and then alternate picking actions and create an order in which they resolve." (I know that there is a special way to quote stuff) That is what I was saying on the other thread, and yet you countered with Epic Rampage, how it's called at the beginning of the turn. What I was saying is that EAs don't need a queue unless a certain situation arises, like 2 Epic Strikes being called just before a Heroic Duel. ANYHOWS, this would be great if someone could summarise all the arguing that we did, then summarise the general consensus and be done with it. Maybe make it a sticky or whatever for easy reference.

_________________
"Leave Sauron to me."
If you're in the Raleigh, NC area, let me know.