WotR: Charging from defensive terrain

fracas · **Posted:** Sun Feb 27, 2011 4:04 pm

can a formation in a defensive terrain charge out of it?
1. there are no rules reference i can find in either the charge section or the defensible terrain section
2. there is restriction to moving out with enemy within 6" but a move is not a charge.

thus i say you can
my friend says no you cannot but cannot give me a rules reference to support his argument

Slythar · **Posted:** Sun Feb 27, 2011 9:23 pm

I don't believe you can but I can't find the specific rule either.
pg. 53 "Exiting a Terrain Feature" If you can make those rules work then sure you can, but you can't on the double and line up the rest of the formation because they are considered to complete their move for the phase exiting. So near impossible but much easier vs. Single companies or monsters or if you only have one company in there.

#2 Its not a move or a charge. Its leaving the defensive terrain. pg. 53, "Death at the gates"

fracas · **Posted:** Sun Feb 27, 2011 9:31 pm

but the rules for lining up a company after a charge is also different from lining up after a move.

Slythar · **Posted:** Sun Feb 27, 2011 10:13 pm

Read pg. 44...Move Remaining Companies. They exit the building and their full movement is reached, charge failed because they can't line up. You can have a movement rate of 1000", you can't ignore the rules for exiting. The only exception is difficult terrain... no mention of Defensible Terrain.

This argument might be a waste of time... I'm pretty sure you can't charge out of defensive terrain, I just can't find it.

hithero · **Posted:** Mon Feb 28, 2011 7:50 am

The rues don't specifically say you can't, which is why you can't find it, but the rule mechanism doesn't allow it and the only rule to mention leaving terrain has already been stated.

fracas · **Posted:** Mon Feb 28, 2011 10:09 pm

surprised this wasn't in the FAQ

BlackMist · **Posted:** Mon Feb 28, 2011 10:17 pm

It doesn't require an FAQ. Like Hithero says the rules only explain how to leave out of terrain hence you can't charge out of terrain.

fracas · **Posted:** Tue Mar 01, 2011 1:35 am

if charging was in the movement phase as in warhammer, sure
but it is not

thus i would play it to allow charging from defensive terrain

Slythar · **Posted:** Tue Mar 01, 2011 2:04 am

You lost me. If you are determined just call it a house rule. "At my house... I can charge out of defensive terrain however I see fit." Enough trolling.

fracas · **Posted:** Tue Mar 01, 2011 2:07 am

if there are no rules precluding charging out of defensive terrain
why are we assuming that the rules for moving out of terrain apply to charging?

jscottbowman · **Posted:** Tue Mar 01, 2011 5:40 am

Guys, can I suggest you also read the "Area Terrain" post I made on this same forum the other day and its subsequent discussion as the topic has been touched on there:
In summary:
If a unit is in area terrain and is OCCUPYING it, then it must first, exit the terrain feature as described on page p53. Once you have successfully exited terrain in movement phase, you are then free to charge in the charge phase, if you have LOS and sufficient distance to reach target...

If you are not OCCUPYING area terrain but have merely moved through/into it, then by recent discussion it would seem the terrain does not block LOS (through or out of terrain) and so a charge will be permissible. The only thing to work out will be the charge range/distance rolled, and movement rate through terrain, which may well slow down the spearhead company (Box out corner of p43- charging through difficult terrain). It is likely to be this factor that may cause your charge from terrain to fail.

I hope that helps
regards
Scott

lorelorn · **Posted:** Tue Mar 01, 2011 9:42 am

I would have thought the first statement on p.53 (under the heading Exiting a Terrain Feature) would give you your answer:

"A formation may use its move to exit a terrain feature"

As you said yourself, a move is not a charge, and a move is the only means given in the rules for a formation to leave defensible terrain.

Also, I see you want to have your cake and eat it in regards to the Courage test for enemy being within 6" when leaving defensible terrain. Also on page 53: "A unit that wishes to leave defensible terrain while there is an enemy within 6" of the feature must immediately pass a Courage test or remain inside."

So your first assertions are certainly incorrect. Moot though, since the only method given in the rules of leaving defensible terrain is through moving.

Morgoth's Dad · **Joined:** Wed Oct 20, 2010 9:08 pm **Posts:** 38

This is from the FAQs on the GW site.

Q. Does defensible terrain stop ALL charge effects (i.e.
charge bonus dice, unstoppable charge, Epic Charge and
so on)? (p55)
A. Yes indeedy, all of ’em.

fracas · **Posted:** Sat Mar 05, 2011 12:25 am

how could you move through area terrain without entering area terrain, and once entered, you can continue to move out with the rules regulating moving out of area terrain as written. not sure how this applies to charging out of terrain.

stopping charge effects is not same as cannot charge. defensive terrain stop charge effect but clearly you can charge a formation in defensive terrain.

"A formation may use its move to exit a terrain feature"
a charge is not a move
and a formation maybe displaced out of defensive terrain after loosing combat, thus another example of how a formation can exit a defensive terrain without a move

clearly you can move into defensive terrain, and you can also move out of defensive terrain
the question then is if you can charge into terrain, why can you not charge out?

i have no problem if a formation must make a courage test to charge out of defensive terrain. but this require a ruling rather than an opinion or an interpretation.
there is no cake to eat.

i understand all the interpretations presented and all are reasonable as interpretation
but this doesn't make them rules

my fluff interpretation
troops enter defensive terrain for a combat advantage. this advantage is largely defensive. when the opportunity to take to the offensive by charging, they would.

Slythar · **Posted:** Sat Mar 05, 2011 1:14 am

I hate to feed a troll but where does it say "a charge is not a move"? A Charge has elements of moving and movement throughout the description. How does one charge without moving?

BlackMist · **Posted:** Sat Mar 05, 2011 5:31 pm

+1 to Slythar's question.

And +1 to Hithero: The only rule about exiting terrain is that a formation may move out, the rule doesn't say that it has the right to charge out of terrain. Why is this correct? Because rules tell you what you ARE allowed to do, rather than what you are not, otherwise please tell me where it says that Orcs can't fly - clearly it doesn't say that they can't, so going by some people's logic they can, right?

fracas · **Posted:** Sat Mar 05, 2011 5:44 pm

the rules for charging stipulate when a unit cannot charge. being in defensive terrain is not listed.
the rules for defensive terrain stipulate restriction for movement and defensive bonuses when charge. it does not restrict charging from.
from the two above, it appears you can charge from defensive terrain.

an orc is classified as an orc and not a flying monster, thus cannot charge

BlackMist · **Posted:** Sat Mar 05, 2011 6:43 pm

Fracas wrote:

an orc is classified as an orc and not a flying monster, thus cannot charge

Well... it doesn't say that models on foot cannot fly, it only says that flying monsters CAN fly ^^

The rules for defensible terrain only allow formations to leave in movement phase, do not say that you are allowed to charge out.

fracas · **Posted:** Sat Mar 05, 2011 11:30 pm

saying only flying monster can fly means orcs, not being flying monsters, cannot fly
otherwise the rules would have to use double negatives, as in not being flying monsters mean it cannot fly.

yes the rules declare some things possible and some things not possible, leaving a large swath of greys in between

page 42 under who can charge?
"Formations are normally free to charge. Most formations in an army are equipped and trained for close quarters battle are determined, or perhaps even eager, to get to grops with the foe.
However, there are some important conditions under which a formation is not permitted to charge. A formation may not charge if it is disordered, or if it made a shooting attack in the preceding Shoot phase. Similarly, a formation may not charge it it has itself been charged earlier in the Charge phase - it is now engaged in a fight and must battle for supremacy in the Fight phase."

yes there can be exception to this, such as Expert Riders. but as far as i know, and with y'all assistance, there has not been a rule exception to this regarding formation charging from defensive terrain. the most likely place for a rule exception restricting such a charge would have been in the Defensive Terrain section of the rules, and clearly it is not there. movement restriction with defensive terrain is stated but not charging restriction. (a charge is not a move because a move cannot take a formation into contact with an enemy formation for a fight, and the rules mechanics are given under separate sections). thus rules as written (RAW) allows charging from defensive terrain.
I am surprise that rules as interpreted (RAI) as not allowing charges from defensive terrain is so popular and rigorously defended despite lack of evidential support.

BlackMist · **Posted:** Sat Mar 05, 2011 11:49 pm

Evidential support, page 53:
"A formation may use its MOVE to leave a terrain feature"

It cannot leave by charging. It can only leave by moving.
It also has to follow the restrictions of staying in base contact with the terrain when it leaves, every company must be within 6" of the terrain and the formation must be legal.

It is free to charge after exiting. There is no rule allowing you explicitly to charge out of defensible terrain. The only rule that exists is that you can MOVE out of it. Read As Written, opposite to Read as Interpreted.

WotR: Charging from defensive terrain

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