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 Post subject: Re: WOTR houserules
PostPosted: Sun Nov 06, 2011 11:04 pm 
Elven Warrior
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The 'He' in that paragraph refers to the Balrog not the Dragon. The Dragon is just the point of comparison. Sorry for the loose writing.

I think that just giving them higher defense is even tidier but I'd want to check all the statlines just to nmake sure that this is equitable before I put that in my doc. If it is equitable, then yes it is definitely a better idea than rerolls to hit them, which is an idea with more flavour but also much more dice rolling.

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 Post subject: Re: WOTR houserules
PostPosted: Mon Nov 07, 2011 1:25 am 
Elven Elder
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Well, epic shot will take it out pretty fast for one.

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 Post subject: Re: WOTR houserules
PostPosted: Mon Nov 07, 2011 5:03 pm 
Elven Elder
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Weird your coplaining about the vulnerabilty of the Balrog tough mabe you should try a Winged Nazgul to get some perspective.

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 Post subject: Re: WOTR houserules
PostPosted: Mon Nov 07, 2011 6:12 pm 
Elven Elder
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But a Balrog is supposed to be nigh unstoppable whereas Gandalf could scare off several Ringwraiths with a flash light. I'm not complaining, I'm just wondering if these house rules makes him worth the 500 pts.

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 Post subject: Re: WOTR houserules
PostPosted: Mon Nov 07, 2011 7:16 pm 
Elven Warrior
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Hi Draugluin - I don't disagree. In WOTR, the Balrog is not what it should be but I think that to have it scale to the rest of what appears in a typical game, you have to accept that the Balrog gets driven off (but not killed) sometimes. Sauron is another model that is much weaker than he should be and the reality is that while both were defeated by a very specific opponent (a surprisingly powerful Istari in one case and a lucky blow with the shard of Narsil in another) they can't be that difficult in every game or it would skew things totally.

That's just IMO :)

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 Post subject: Re: WOTR houserules
PostPosted: Mon Nov 07, 2011 9:35 pm 
Elven Elder
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Well, for 500 pts, you would expect something to be insanely powerful.

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 Post subject: Re: WOTR houserules
PostPosted: Mon Nov 07, 2011 9:52 pm 
Elven Elder
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Xelee, the Sauron point is the one i'm making, the Balrog is still EH2K, its only Sauron that costs 500pts nad its trhat easy to destroy, a Balrog isnt anwhere near as bad as Sauron, and comparing the two, makes the Balrog seem like an amazing investment, its only the Dragon that makes the Balrog less so, that and being Spirit type.

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 Post subject: Re: WOTR houserules
PostPosted: Mon Nov 07, 2011 10:02 pm 
Elven Warrior
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I think we can safely leave Sauron as a Scenario piece.

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 Post subject: Re: WOTR houserules
PostPosted: Mon Nov 07, 2011 10:08 pm 
Elven Elder
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on the subject, I was trying to come up with a 2000pt army that includes Sauron and isn't dreadful, and shrt of Sauron and the Gorgoroth Orc Horde full of Wraiths and Gothmog, with a few Morgul Knights and Morannon Orcs thrown in seems to be all i can think of, the only way Sauron is in a good list is when everyhing else is so ridiculously overpowerfed. Its so sickening.

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 Post subject: Re: WOTR houserules
PostPosted: Mon Nov 07, 2011 10:42 pm 
Elven Elder
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A simple solution would be to increase his resistance by 1 or 2.

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 Post subject: Re: WOTR houserules
PostPosted: Mon Nov 07, 2011 10:44 pm 
Elven Elder
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Sauron's or the Balrog's, or both?

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 Post subject: Re: WOTR houserules
PostPosted: Mon Nov 07, 2011 10:53 pm 
Elven Elder
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Both :wink:. I would definitely make Sauron at least 3 maybe 4 resistance, and maybe have the Balrog have 3 resistance. I would also give the Balrog a fiery lash (throwing weapon) with 3+ fight.

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 Post subject: Re: WOTR houserules
PostPosted: Mon Nov 07, 2011 11:00 pm 
Elven Elder
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That sounds about right although i think mean 3+shoot not fight.

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 Post subject: Re: WOTR houserules
PostPosted: Mon Nov 07, 2011 11:06 pm 
Elven Elder
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Yes, I meant shoot.

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 Post subject: Re: WOTR houserules
PostPosted: Wed Nov 09, 2011 2:36 am 
Elven Warrior
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I've done an updated (one year on from the OP! Thanks for the input guys :D ) 2011 version based on this thread and discussions elsewhere:

New to the list this year are changes to how Monsters work to try and make 'Hard to Kill' and 'Very hard to Kill' Monsters less of a case of false advertising. I have also adjusted a number of units that had no option to move at the double (which proved to really hamper already expensive options) to be able to do so and I have made Spirit troops a little tougher. This year's version of the 'Ard Boyz' also had a good idea in one of their scenarios so I have switched 'Will of Iron' back to being a 4+ but now any hero that still has at least one might point remaining can do this for free. A small change (call it 'Editor's Prerogative') was to tone down one spell that I have found too silly. I've decided to be conservative on the issue of Captain costs.

Here is this year's handy one-page rules mod. Enjoy and any and all comments welcome here on thethread for this doc. These can all fit easily on a single, one-side, A4 sheet.

General Rules
Will of Iron, change to roll for free, on a 4+, whenever a hero has at least one might point left..
Units with the ‘Counselors’ rule, may not benefit from might from another unit with that rule.
Overlord cannot be used to allow a formation without a hero to call heroic actions.
Inspiring Leader cannot be used to boost courage vs Spirit Grasp
All Monsters and formations with 'we stand alone' may attempt move at the double.
Battlehosts: Only heroes purchased as part of the Battlehost may join during a game.

Epic Actions

Epic Strike: change to give the hero his base fight + 2. (ie this will lift it back up from 0, if used)
Epic Charge: change to incorporate the features of a heroic charge
Epic Rampage: hits for the purposes of this rule, cannot be rolled again on 1s to hit.

Equipment
Crossbows: Disallow the ability of ‘heroic shoot’ to permit them to shoot after moving.
Throwing weapons: ignore note in shooting text about being unable to shoot if you move more than half. If used within 3”of defensible terrain, they are always able to hit troops inside.
Pikes: can fight counting full attacks from second rank when allocating hits to the front.
Heavy infantry with shields, set a price floor:
1. No def 6 (including shield) troops below 25pts in cost, 30 pts if they have crossbows/berserkers/pikes/special charge ability etc
2. No def 7 (including shield) troops below 30pts in cost, 35 pts if they have crossbows/berserkers/pikes/special charge ability etc
Banner 15pts; Hornblower/Drummer 10pts; Taskmaster 20pts; Goblin Drum 40pts
Captain 40pts; Shaman/Stormcaller 75pts

Spirits: All spirit formations count as Defense 7.

Monsters: 'Hard to Kill' Monsters deduct 1 from all rolls on their table (the same as the former VH2K) and 'Very Hard to Kill' Monsters now use the following instead of the old table: D6 result (+ wound counters) - 1-2: Nothing, 3-5: 1 wound, 6-8: 2 wounds, 9: Dead. On any natural 6, you apply that result and roll again for free.

Nazgul now Mastery 2 base and Winged Nazgul in the battlehost now count as 'Hard to Kill':
The Witch-king of Angmar Remains Mastery 3, Gains ‘No Man may Kill Me’ (each hit in a duel is negated on a 4+) – except vs female heroes. His special ability works in rear arc.
The Betrayer Rerolls for just for his company.
Khamul the Easterling Save changes to only negate hits, and not reflect them onto other units.
The Knight of Umbar Boosts apply only to him and his company.

Fallen Realms - Corsair Arbalesters, the Pavise shield only grants a defense bonus for shooting and spells, and grants no defense bonus in melee.

Elves - Longbows, change to add ability to always ignore shields; Elven Glaives, change to add new priority: infantry with glaives strike before other infantry, cavalry with glaives strike before other cavalry.

Rohan - change to give all cavalry in the list the benefit of the Lances rule.

AngmarBuhrdur becomes 'Hard to Kill' (ie he does not benefit from the new VH2K table)

Spells: 'Wings of Terror' now just allows unit to act as if it has a drummer/hornblower and banner, and always pass rolls to move at double.

Blogpost version here: http://roughwotr.blogspot.com/2011/11/w ... ion-i.html

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 Post subject: Re: WOTR houserules
PostPosted: Wed Nov 09, 2011 3:26 am 
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Just for clarification, the addition of the new Rohan special rule would NOT stack with the lances of the Royal Knights/Theodred's Knights/King's Guard formations right? It seems like a silly question but you never know who might try to twist a rule to their advantage. (We Rohan Players are very tricksy, yes, lol)

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 Post subject: Re: WOTR houserules
PostPosted: Wed Nov 09, 2011 3:40 am 
Elven Warrior
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Hi WayUnderTheMountain, yes you either have the Lances special rule or you don't. The Lances special rule gives +1 to hit when you charge and does not stack. It's not the worst question out there, given the troops have the effect of the Lances rule, without lances. So tricksy Rohan players might indeed argue..... :-D

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 Post subject: Re: WOTR houserules
PostPosted: Wed Nov 09, 2011 3:54 am 
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Okay, thanks Xelee. I just wanted to make sure it read as I was sure you intended. I'd rather not win through trickery or arguing small details of war gaming to my benefit.

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 Post subject: Re: WOTR houserules
PostPosted: Wed Nov 09, 2011 7:07 pm 
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I just posted this as a reply on Xelee's blog but thought perhaps it might be good fodder for this forum as well (generate discussion and the like).

+ + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + +


Though I have yet to convince my main playing opponent to adopt these rules (and we both play Angmar!), I've always liked the gist of brewing up some house rules to flesh out the areas that feel so completely tacked-on, untested and paved over in the War of the Ring rulebook.

What always made me scratch my head though is the across-the-board application of the lance rule to the Riders of Rohan--not saying they shouldn't be better (though they've TOTALLY rolled me in the past without needing the lance rule). Is there perhaps another way to even the playing field with Rohan without simply making them the Knights of Minas Rohan?

Also, I heartily agree that Angmar's spirit soldiers are underpowered according to the points cost they retain, but everything defense 7 is....I don't know--I have no doubts that it fixes problems, I just wonder if it might be fixing it too eagerly. I'v felt that the sucky-ness of the spirits was not that they died/were banished too easily; I always felt they were underwhelming: they never felt like they were in their element; they excelled at nothing--I guess I mean they never hit hard enough.

With Spirits, I really (REALLY) like the suggestion that Spirit Grasp attacks the models' base Courage...regardless of which hero was leading the formation (or close by it). They would certainly be deadlier if heroes, when dealing with Spirit Grasp, could only pass their Courage value on to the other models in their company--but NOT their formation. (Which you could then make Gandalf EXTRA cool and show how the Elven Ring of Fire was SO good by allowing Gandalf the Grey to pass his Courage on to his whole formation...just some thoughts).

I'm a bit more of a fan of making battles feel like there could be a good back story to them (even if just a one-off pick-up game); consequently, I really liked the idea behind Fates & Fortunes (sadly, I think they ended up being just more ways to math out a list and make it work in a very specific way--but more on that at a later time...perhaps one of my posts on my blog.)

Following that line of thought, I think it'd be pretty neat to introduce a Fate titled something like "Apex of Sauron's Power" which would give each Ringwraith a +1 Mastery (the catch being the Fate would be EXPENSIVE...and not usable in tournaments). I think there is a time and a place for the Ringwraiths to be ABSOLUTELY terrifying to face, just not every time you face them; it should only happen in the biggest battles (signifying that Sauron has grown powerful enough and bold enough to throw all his chips on the table...as it were).

I thought perhaps a similar Fate doing the same thing for spirits to make them +2 Defense--but have that +2 Defense be linked to a model or army general (so long as that model lives etc etc). maybe make the same Fate have the Spirits attack the base Courage of models, ignoring the Courage of any other models leading the formation or company?

Just my thoughts on the first half of this thread (I've only made it to page three and still want to go through the rest, but I thought I should post these ideas before I forgot them).

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 Post subject: Re: WOTR houserules
PostPosted: Wed Nov 09, 2011 11:46 pm 
Elven Elder
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Xelee, I see the spirits have increased defence like i suggested, and you changed WoI, the rest of your rules are no new news to me, so I don't feel the need to repeat comments. With the exception, I think you should make non-hero monsters, except those that are EH2K ie Mumakil and Stone Giants, still able to recieve overlord, although they obviously can't call duels as they aren't heroes.

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