good point

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From The Lowest Dungen To The Highist Peak I Fought Him The Fell Balrog Of Morgoth

Gandalf,The Two Towers

Becasue this topic has gone cold, I will now (very tentatively) suggest a new one. Thror, please forgive my taking liberties.

The new topic is:

Isengard Troll

What are your thoughts on it, and how do you use it?

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"You draw far too much attention to yourself, Mr. Baggins!"

Also note thor if telcontar hadnt changed it I would of probobly tried to

Isengaurd trolls......hmmmmm.......

Well I have no thoughts for them other than Gamesworkshop has made a completly fake modle

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From The Lowest Dungen To The Highist Peak I Fought Him The Fell Balrog Of Morgoth

Gandalf,The Two Towers

Oh I dunno.... the model isn't that bad. Plus it could be converted to a nice-looking Mordor Troll.

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"You draw far too much attention to yourself, Mr. Baggins!"

Completely independently, I have thought of a new topic:
Isengard Trolls
No worries Telcontar.

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Thror Clawhammer
Is it sad that I spent hours trying to think of a signature?

I do think its a great model with good rules. I have no problem using him in the games but it would still bug me just a little having something that isnt really Tolkien.

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"And you have never been in love. Until you've seen the dawn rise behind the home for the blind."

I haven't seen the rules yet, but I have seen the miniatures, and I have to say they look kinda fun. As chew toys.

But seriously, I have to agree that trolls of any kind do not fit thematically into an Isengard force.
I would be willing to bet, though, that they can be converted up to fit into a Mordor force, and spears are one of the main reason I will have more Cave trolls than Mountain trolls in my own Mordor army.

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I personally like it and am not too objectionate from a theme perspective.

II am a long-time fan of the books ( first read them 20+ years ago ) and also a major fan of the movies. The heavy use of trolls by Mordor in the movies was one of the liberties taken by the movie makers to create an experience that is the spirit of Tolkien without providing a word-for-word translation of the books. Likewise, GW has taken liberties with the game to provide an interractive experience for the players that is in the spirit of both the books and movies without restricting themselves to a literal translation of either.

Isengard shared the Uruk Hai with Mordor. What is to say that Mordor didn't share the knowledge of breeding stronger trolls? Or if you do not like to take that much of a step then perhaps you could justify by saying Mordor Trolls were given to Sauruman to help supplement his forces. Sauruman armed and armored them in the form of his fighting Uruk Hai and trained them to serve him.

Either way, I don’t think the Isengard Troll is going to tip the balance of any game significantly. It does have respectable stats for a single model, but for that same 110 points you could get 11 Uruak Hai with shields. That would give you 11 strength 4 attacks vs 3 strength 6 and give you the ability to absorb 11 wounds vs. 3. There are tactical situations where a single strong model is better than numbers of smaller ones, but those 11 UH would have a better chance of dividing forces, surrounding enemy units, etc. Plus, trolls seem to become arrow magnets and a focus for enemy attention ( which may be a valid tactic in itself ).

So I think the Isengard Troll is more to bring some spice and variety to an army that otherwise is mostly just UH. I have been getting some Orc to add to my Isengard legions just because to me it is more in theme with the literature vs. the movie which is almost exclusively legions of UH. But I also would like to see an Isengard Troll charging into battle beside my Uruk forces and smashing the Rohirrim while my UH and Orc archers raid down pain from afar. It doesn't feel as outside theme as including Corsairs or a Nazgul but brings some extra fun. And that's the core goal of any game anyway.

Beowulf03809 made some very good points. Personal opinions aside (themed vs. "stretch of the imagination") Trolls are a tactical challenge regardless of the troops being used. Strategically, 100+ points spent on a variety of lesser troops may have an entirely different impact on the battle, as Beowulf pointed out.

I have yet to use a Troll in battle, but in those instances when I have fought against them they have always been a focal point for concern and usually receive the attention from my bowmen early in the battle.

What are the tactical advantages of having a Troll? Obviously they are a powerful force and have a good chance of winning against an enemy hero (assuming they can survive long enough to engage the hero) but are there other tactical advantages?

Cheers

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Curunír
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Well personally I like the sculpt and the rules, the Isengard army hsa needed someform of hard hitter while beserkers do a good job the troll can perform this roll slightly better. But I would like to go on record as saying that I am apposed to the concept of the troll.

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Well said, Beowulf03809.

In answer to Curunir, I would say that trolls can be used to advantage in exactly the way that they are targeted first.
Bear with me. The first time I played my best friend, I was fielding my first generation elven force, verses a team of gobbos Dow was borrowing. My elves included one captain who had heavy armor and shield, so his defence was 7. I was pretty confident that he would survive to the final rounds of the game, but Dow kept focusing all gobbo archers on him, and sent skirmishers against him until he was dead.
The point is this: He sent so many forces against my one very durable warrior for so long that the rest of my forces had the slack they needed to wittle the other gobbos down.
A troll can be a very effective, if expensive, diversion from the rest of the army.

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I've played a few games with the isengard troll, and I must say I think he's brilliant. His high defence means that less arrows find their mark on him than the mordor troll, and although he has one less strenght, I think that this characteristic is respectable enough killing all but the toughest heroes on 4+ or less. His higher courage means thta it is easier for him to charge terrifying enemies. Againt horseman he can be devastating. The troll can help protec t the flank of my phalanx formation with my pikes (theres nothing worse than a cavalry charge right into the side). I think that the troll gave isengard something it was lacking - a hard hitting single troop (to make up for the lack of decent heroes)

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I can't exactly say the Isengard troll is an army in itself at all, I played earlier today with an Isengard army featuring one. The main force of its army moved out to the left, while the troll moved to the right, accompanied with 5 orcs. I decided to charge the troll and friends with my spearmen and captain(btw, I was Gondor, 1 captain and 10 spears), and leave the swords and bows to fire at the oncoming force and then charge. Needless to say, the troll and it's friends were lost in history quickly, and the spears made it back in time to flank the uruks, and win me the game. Bah. The troll killed 2 men in total.

Although it would have done more damage if it had been used effectively, there were points when 2 spearmen beat it in combat, while the rest of the men were held back by the orcs.

I agree though, perhaps after a bit of careful usage, the troll will make a comeback one day.

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Trolls have to be used effectively or they wont do anything, partner them with another troll or some other hard units and they will rampage

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Stefan

well thats like saying a rihno will die if he is hunted down but you could not withstand a stampede of rihno's, if they cant hold thier own then whats the point of fielding the troll.

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If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world.
Thorin Oakenshield

Exactly my point Tom Bombadilo, if two WoMT beat the troll and wounded it once, then beat the troll and wounded it another time, then beat it AGAIN but failed to wound, theres something wrong with the troll.

It could have been the troll's bad luck, or my extremely good luck, we'll never know, but that is kind of bad.

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I am the mighty Manbearpig, half man, half bear, half pig. The only being in the universe who can defeat me is Mr. Rogers.

It was your good luck and the other guy's bad luck. The same thing could have happened with the Balrog, for crying out loud - that is, unless they've changed the Balrog's rules from the One Book.

@Gothmog Rulez!: That almost sounds like it's something you've experienced personally.

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Oh, probably is. And that sort of independence is very courageous, Thror...

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"You draw far too much attention to yourself, Mr. Baggins!"

I dont think ill field him anyway (the isen troll) because i dont play if it is not conincide with the books, im going to do a conversion for him.

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If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world.
Thorin Oakenshield

Yup Mordor troll is not meant to be partnered with a mordor orc and a ringwraith with 2 will points

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Stefan