Piercing Striking with a Two handed Axe

jdizzy001 · **Posted:** Thu Jul 24, 2014 10:53 am

rumtap wrote:

I've said it before, I'll say it again. The problem is the special strike rules. Nobody ever complained about axes on elves before they came in.

I understand the intent was to create a bit more diversity and interest but the method misses the mark. To a degree a level of equality has been removed from the game. You don't hear of anyone adding maces or clubs to elves. Points wise an axe and club is a hand weapon of the same value yet in play they are not valued the same!

Sorry for my slightly off topic rant. I pray to the admin gods for forgiveness.

Amen! This is a perfect example of power creep. I admit, that the creep is minor, as opposed to my original assumption (viewtopic.php?f=20&t=29074&hilit=Power+creep) but it is still power creep. Otherwise, we would not be having this discussion.

On a similar note, would one object if a player were to convert his easterlings to all carry spears? Or bows? Or both?

Galanur · **Joined:** Fri Feb 24, 2012 11:28 am **Posts:** 1389

you can convert all easterlings to have spears(phalanx) and bows since its part of their upgrade to do so if you wish, thats nothing against the rules.
Taking advantage of a rule is for example replace all easterling infantry models with sword and replace them with carrying an axe or clubs. A 3 man line, axe in front 2 spears would be 3 dices 1 of which could pierce strike and hurt seriously... in the expense of their defence 6 in the front rank of course.

Also all weapons do diferent things, if they are not equally balanced? maybe, but while an axe got an advantage to hit harder in the expense of defence, the club in the other hand dont actually give any negative bonus to the wielder.

Wanna see a funny example how the staff/club can be more powerfull than an axe?
Lets say for example gandalf along with a couple warriors of minas tirith is fighting a balrog, imagine that if the balrog lose combat (not all that impossible) since its kinda pointless striknig with glamdring for a 10 wound model, try instead hit the balrog with the staff.. watch that great 400pts beast be reduced to fight 1 and 1A until the end of the next turn lol. Much like a dead balrog the following turns to me.. and this was just a simple staff that brought down that huge beast to its knees..

JamesR · **Posted:** Thu Jul 24, 2014 1:43 pm

jdizzy001 wrote:

rumtap wrote:

I've said it before, I'll say it again. The problem is the special strike rules. Nobody ever complained about axes on elves before they came in.

I understand the intent was to create a bit more diversity and interest but the method misses the mark. To a degree a level of equality has been removed from the game. You don't hear of anyone adding maces or clubs to elves. Points wise an axe and club is a hand weapon of the same value yet in play they are not valued the same!

Sorry for my slightly off topic rant. I pray to the admin gods for forgiveness.

Amen! This is a perfect example of power creep. I admit, that the creep is minor, as opposed to my original assumption (viewtopic.php?f=20&t=29074&hilit=Power+creep) but it is still power creep. Otherwise, we would not be having this discussion.

On a similar note, would one object if a player were to convert his easterlings to all carry spears? Or bows? Or both?

I know you're obsessed with looking for the "power creep" but this doesn't qualify. Any troops (old or new) can be converted to any weapons and newer models are having their weapon type specified to prevent this; so actually it's another example of the old stuff being stronger

JamesR · **Posted:** Thu Jul 24, 2014 1:51 pm

Quote:

I agree with your statement. Except on the point of sportsmanship. Since the early days of LOTR SBG, GW has made a point to emphasize WYSIWYG, so, if a player wants to spend their time crafting thematic (or non-thematic) elf axes and slap one on every single elf in their army, then so be it. It isn't unsportsman-like. After they beat you in a game, if they were to gloat about their powerful elf axes *then* it would be unsportsman-like. IMHO. I don't see how following the rules of the game is unsportsman-like.

Personally, this is why I preferred their original approach of, a hand weapon is a hand weapon.

PS- Yes, Jar Jar (or Bottle Bottle as I like to call him) was a horrid idea, border-lining on racist.

I have to disagree here as well. It is unsporting to abuse the rules. And that's what this "convert everyone to gear they don't normally have" is. The newest rules were put in place to diversify the game more, not to start massive conversion fests where all your wood elves suddenly carry axes. It's not a usual piece of wargear that they can have and the different special strikes have not been calculated into points costs even though they're obviously worth different amounts.

So when you convert all your Abrakhan to carry axes (as the example from the OP asks) you are literally breaking the game completely from a points balance sense as the Abrakhan should now be worth more than their 8 points

LordoftheBrownRing · **Posted:** Thu Jul 24, 2014 4:40 pm

JamesR wrote:

You can but that's a whole new level of cheese

Why? Its legitimately just a basic rule. Theres nothing underhanded at all

If a model has a two handed axe he completely has the right to do both. I use it fairly often.

I mean as a dwarf player, are you literally going to discount your Khazad Guard from being able to use a special strike because that weapon is there only option? Not a chance.

JamesR · **Posted:** Thu Jul 24, 2014 5:19 pm

LordoftheBrownRing wrote:

JamesR wrote:

You can but that's a whole new level of cheese

Why? Its legitimately just a basic rule. Theres nothing underhanded at all

If a model has a two handed axe he completely has the right to do both. I use it fairly often.

I mean as a dwarf player, are you literally going to discount your Khazad Guard from being able to use a special strike because that weapon is there only option? Not a chance.

You've completely missed what I was referencing. I have no problem with an axe armed model doing both. My qualm was with replacing an Abrakhan Guard's sword with an axe and then doing this. The giving of an axe to them is the cheese

jdizzy001 · **Posted:** Thu Jul 24, 2014 6:51 pm

JamesR wrote:

jdizzy001 wrote:

rumtap wrote:

I've said it before, I'll say it again. The problem is the special strike rules. Nobody ever complained about axes on elves before they came in.

I understand the intent was to create a bit more diversity and interest but the method misses the mark. To a degree a level of equality has been removed from the game. You don't hear of anyone adding maces or clubs to elves. Points wise an axe and club is a hand weapon of the same value yet in play they are not valued the same!

Sorry for my slightly off topic rant. I pray to the admin gods for forgiveness.

Amen! This is a perfect example of power creep. I admit, that the creep is minor, as opposed to my original assumption (viewtopic.php?f=20&t=29074&hilit=Power+creep) but it is still power creep. Otherwise, we would not be having this discussion.

On a similar note, would one object if a player were to convert his easterlings to all carry spears? Or bows? Or both?

I know you're obsessed with looking for the "power creep" but this doesn't qualify. Any troops (old or new) can be converted to any weapons and newer models are having their weapon type specified to prevent this; so actually it's another example of the old stuff being stronger

The troops arent getting stronger, but the weapons are. Otherwise this conversation wouldnt be happening. But I am going to be quiet on the matter since I'm in the minority, and this isn't the thread to discuss power creep. My apologies to the OP.

LordoftheBrownRing · **Posted:** Thu Jul 24, 2014 10:07 pm

JamesR wrote:

LordoftheBrownRing wrote:

JamesR wrote:

You can but that's a whole new level of cheese

Why? Its legitimately just a basic rule. Theres nothing underhanded at all

If a model has a two handed axe he completely has the right to do both. I use it fairly often.

I mean as a dwarf player, are you literally going to discount your Khazad Guard from being able to use a special strike because that weapon is there only option? Not a chance.

You've completely missed what I was referencing. I have no problem with an axe armed model doing both. My qualm was with replacing an Abrakhan Guard's sword with an axe and then doing this. The giving of an axe to them is the cheese

Sorry my mobile must have glitched out. I have to start going to this site on an actual laptop.

Dr Grant · **Joined:** Fri Aug 03, 2012 1:50 pm **Posts:** 1339

jdizzy001 wrote:

Amen! This is a perfect example of power creep. I admit, that the creep is minor, as opposed to my original assumption (viewtopic.php?f=20&t=29074&hilit=Power+creep) but it is still power creep. Otherwise, we would not be having this discussion.

Please not this again! It's still not power creep! That thread you linked to is full of people explaining that power creep doesn't mean what you think it means, lets not see this pop up in every thread about special strikes please!

JamesR wrote:

I have to disagree here as well. It is unsporting to abuse the rules. And that's what this "convert everyone to gear they don't normally have" is. The newest rules were put in place to diversify the game more, not to start massive conversion fests where all your wood elves suddenly carry axes. It's not a usual piece of wargear that they can have and the different special strikes have not been calculated into points costs even though they're obviously worth different amounts.

JamesR is completely on the money here. The weapon rules were put in place to change the way each model worked, based on the weapons they were carrying. The intent was certainly not to encourage every player to pick which one they thought was best (axes) and stick them on every model they can.

Just because something is legal in the rules doesn't mean it's in the spirit of the rules. 99% of the axes I've seen converted onto models in the last year have all been to give an in-game advantage, not for theme reasons, arming everything with axes is certainly allowed but it is cheesy and bending the intent of the rules to your purposes.

Pindergorn · **Posted:** Sat Jul 26, 2014 3:47 pm

I gave my converted Angmar Cave Troll a Flail. It came with the spear but a large section was missing and the spear was half the correct length, so I figured I could use some wire bent into shape with balls of milliput attached to make a crude mace.

Looks pretty cool.

The next step is to sculpt on some furs, leather and chainmail similar to Burdhur.

Piercing Striking with a Two handed Axe

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