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 Post subject: Project: Númenór
PostPosted: Thu Apr 16, 2009 4:11 am 
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Hi all, I come here today bearing a revamp of the Númenórean army list, including many a new unit and hero! What spurred this idea on was the fact that despite being one of the coolest armies out there, Númenór only has a grand total of four different units, including two named heroes.

So, here goes nuttin’! Heroes first, Warriors are probably going to come later.

Heroes

High King Elendil (as main rulebook’s Elendil. May have shield for +5 points or armored horse for +15 points.)
Elendil the Faithful…………………………………………………………………………………………….Points Value: 195
This version of Elendil represents a younger Elendil, as he first leaves Númenór for Middle-Earth. Only one version of Elendil may be included in your force.
F S D A W C M/W/F
6/- 4 6 3 3 6 3/2/2

Wargear:
Narsil, Finely-crafted Heavy Armor, the Seeing Stones
May have:
Horse – 10 pts

Special Rules:
Narsil: As High King Elendil
The Seeing Stones: Counts as the Palantír rule used by Saruman, save that this ability may be used D3 times per game, rather than once. (Roll before deployment)

Anárion, Prince of Númenór………………………………………………………………………..Points Value: 90
F S D A W C M/W/F
6/- 4 6 2 2 5 3/2/2

Wargear:
Sword, heavy armor
May have:
Shield – 5 pts
Horse – 10 pts
Banner of Annúminas – 50 pts

Special Rules:
Banner of Annúminas: This banner confers all the usual benefits of a banner. In addition, a Heroic Action called by a Hero within 6” of the Banner (including Anárion) affect all Good models within 12” of the Hero, instead of 6”.
Champion of Númenór: Anárion does not suffer -1 to win the fight while wielding the Banner. In addition, while fighting at least one enemy Hero, Anárion benefits from +1 F.

Isildur (as main rulebook)
Númenórean Captain (as main rulebook, may take a Númenórean Longsword (Elven Blade) for +5 points, in addition to other options)

Númenórean Loremaster……………………………………………………………………………………..Points Value: 65
F S D A W C M/W/F
4/- 3 5 1 2 3 1/3/1

Wargear:
Armor.
May Have:
Horse – 10 pts

Special Rules:
Advisor: Good heroes within 6” of a character with the Advisor special rule, and who do not have the Advisor special rule themselves, roll a D6 each time they use a point of Might. On a 6, that Might point is immediately regained – it is effectively “free”.

Magical Powers:
Blinding Light. Dice score to cast: 3+
Command. Dice score to cast: 5+

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Last edited by King Under the Mountain on Sun Apr 19, 2009 1:28 am, edited 3 times in total.
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 16, 2009 4:35 am 
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I don't know what those Seeing Stones are worth, but from what I can see you've given them a cost of 5-10 points max. Getting to win priority even once (as Saruman's Palantir rule) would seem to be worth a lot more than that. If you compare Saruman's profile in the OR book (with the Palantir) with that in the Fall of the Necromancer sourcebook (without it), it's a 20 point difference. So an average of 2 (d3) would make the Seeing Stones about 40 points, so Elendil the Faithful would be around 195.

Otherwise I really like what you've done. Most people overpower their profiles, but IMHO you've got a nice balanced usable couple of heroes.

It would be nice to see Numenor re-done, properly representing the pinnacle of the Mannish race. If you look back in this forum far enough you'll see many such threads. Example:

http://www.one-ring.co.uk/phpBB2/viewto ... c&start=20

You might like my captain and marshall :)
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 16, 2009 5:35 am 
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Thanks, whafrog, I was sort of wondering about the points myself... I think I'll bump 'em up. Also, what's your opinion on the Banner of Annuminas? That gave me the most trouble writing the rules (I had several editions, including one which granted Resistant to Magic) and I was hard-pressed to come up with a unique, yet worthwhile, banner. I'll be taking a look at that other thread, thanks :)

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 16, 2009 2:23 pm 
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I'd say the banner is interesting, hard to know whether it's worth the points until it's playtested. Does it have normal range for non-heroes (3")?

About the name...wasn't Annúminas the capital of the north kingdom (Arnor)? That was Isildur's, since Anarion stayed in the south.
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 16, 2009 11:30 pm 
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1) Yes, it does.

2) Yeah, I know, but I thought it'd be nice to have a change from the usual, it's still part of the Numenorian realm. Although "Banner of Osgiliath" does have a nice ring to it. :)

The second part will be up tonight.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 1:59 am 
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On to part two! :-D

Warriors

Númenórean Warrior (As main rulebook, save that Strength and Courage are amended to 4, and points value to 9. In addition, the cost for banners is increased to 30 points.)

Númenórean Mariner………………………………………………………………………………Points Value: 10
F……...S….….D……….A…….W…….C
4/4+...4……..4………..1……..1……..4

Wargear:
Sword, armor, throwing weapons. May have:
Spear – 1 pt
Heavy Armor – 1 pt
Steel Bow – 3 pts

Steel Bow: A steel bow is a masterpiece of Númenórean artisanship. It has the following profile:
Range 18” Strength 4, may not volley, -1 to hit at 12" or greater

Númenórean Lancer…………………………………………………………………………….Points Value: 16
F……...S….….D……….A…….W…….C
4/-…..4………5………..1……..1……..4
0……..3………4………..0………1……..3

Wargear:
Sword, armor, shield, lance. Rides a horse. May have:
Banner – 30 pts

Númenórean Longswordsman…………………………………………………………………………..Points Value: 12
F……...S….….D……….A…….W…….C
5/-……4………5……….1………1……..4

Wargear:
Heavy Armor, Númenórean Longsword (counts as Elven Blade). May have:
Long Knife – 1 pt

Long Knife: A Longswordsman with a Longsword and a Long Knife has +1 A, but loses the ability to use the Longsword as a two-handed weapon.

Watchers of Osgiliath…………………………………………………………………………………...Points Value: 15
F……...S….….D……….A…….W…….C
5/-……4……..7………..1……..1……..5

Wargear:
Mithril Armor, shield, spear

Special Rules:
Guardians of the City: May use their spears as pikes, which may be used in conjunction with their shields.
Knights of Númenór……………………………………………………………………………………..Points Value: 22
F……...S….….D……….A…….W…….C
5/-…..4………6………..2……..1……..5
0……..3………5…………0……..1……..3

Wargear:
Heavy Armor, Shield, Lance, rides an Armored Horse.

Special Rules:
Expert Rider.
Glorious Charge: A Knight of Númenór must always end his move closer to an enemy model than when he began it.

Númenórean Onager………………………………………………………………………….Points Value: 80
Range........Strength………Defense………..Batter Points
48".............( 8 )………………..10………………………3

F……...S….….D……….A…….W…….C
4/4+…4………4………..1……..1……..4
Wargear:
One Onager and three Crewmen, armed with hand weapons and armor.

Special Rules:
Accurate: Onagers are easier to aim than Catapults and other heavy Siege Engines. When firing an Onager at a Battlefield target the shot will Scatter only 3”/8cm rather than 6”/14cm.

Area Affect: Onagers fire a multitude of small stones, showering the area in debris and ammunition. If the Onager scores a hit against a Battlefield target, all models within 2”/4cm of the target take a hit of Strength 4 (this hit does not kill Battlefield targets outright).

Upgrades:
Flaming Ammunition – 15 pts
Superior Construction – 20 pts
Extra Crewman – 9 pts
Númenórean Engineer Captain – 80 pts



The idea behind the conjoined list is that while the Heroes aren't truely exceptional fighters, as in Numenor every man is an elite, but through a combination of abilities they have a lot of potential to lead. The troops, while expensive, are there to lend a lot of fighting power, but will quickly crumble if left sitting around too long (especially the Knights of Numenor).

C&C is appreciated.

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Last edited by King Under the Mountain on Sun Apr 19, 2009 1:29 am, edited 6 times in total.
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 2:36 am 
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Just three comments from me for now- The Lancer's banner should be more expensive, due to them being F4 S4 troops. 30 (Uruk-Hai) seems more appropriate.

The Watcher's ability to throw his spear actually doesn't make much sense. Regular spears long enough to provide decent support aren't designed for flight, and once they are thrown, how do they get them back to be able to support (Plus you can't normally shoot and support in the same turn according to the rulebook)? I would drop their throwing weapons, personally.

Also, you seem to have omitted the range of the Onager.

I'll get to the rest later, when I'm not in a rush to get offline. :)
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 2:48 am 
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Points increased on the banner.

Yeah, sort of a silly rule. I'll fix it. 8)

As a regular siege engine, it has a range of 48". But I'll put it in there for clarity.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 7:58 am 
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The stats are good, except those for Anarion, I think he should be at least as good as Isildur (what I mean is 3 in Attack & Wound), but that's only my opinion :wink:

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 2:26 pm 
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Those are some very cool ideas, especially the longswordman. Some thoughts on cost:

1. Steel bow is too powerful. This has been hashed out on several other threads in my recollection, but Str 4 + movement is very unbalancing. The only thing that makes xbows tolerable is no movement. IMHO, it would either need to cost 4 points, or be equivalent to a Dwarf bow. And just for game flavour reasons, it shouldn't overshadow Elves' preeminence in this area.

2. Lancer doesn't cost enough: He has Str 4, F4 and C4, but costs the same as a KoMT who has 3s. I know he has Def 5, but it's not enough.

3. I really like the longswordman and his long knife option, though in this case the points might be 1 too high. I'm thinking of the Corsair Reaver, Str 3, 2 attacks, 10 points. Longswordman with longknife has Str 4 (+1 point) and HA (+2 points) for a total of 13. Since you're turning the elf blade into a hand weapon, I think it's okay for the longknife to be 1 point.

4. Watchers seem overpriced? Maybe 14 points: 9 points for normal warrior, +2 points for armour, +2 for spear and special rule, +1 for fight and courage boost.

5. Sadly, the knights are underpriced. 3 attacks on a charge, F5, Str 4 + lance? Yikes! :shock: One, just one, of these can charge Shagrat WarLeader with even odds and a better chance of wounding, and even if he loses priority next turn, has a decent chance of surviving a counter attack. Start with KoDA at 18 points. Add +2 for the Fight and Courage boost (charging a troll or even a wraith is pretty much guaranteed), and +1 for Str 4. Hard to know what the extra attack is worth for cavalry, but I'd say at least 6 points, if not 10. I'd rather have one of these than a Ranger of the North. So somewhere between 27 and 31 points.

Anyway, cool ideas. :)
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 2:27 pm 
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Hallpers wrote:
The stats are good, except those for Anarion, I think he should be at least as good as Isildur (what I mean is 3 in Attack & Wound), but that's only my opinion :wink:


Actually I kind of liked this downgrade, sort of like Faramir to Boromir. Also makes him more usable in smaller armies.
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 18, 2009 2:27 am 
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whafrog wrote:
Those are some very cool ideas, especially the longswordman. Some thoughts on cost:

1. Steel bow is too powerful. This has been hashed out on several other threads in my recollection, but Str 4 + movement is very unbalancing. The only thing that makes xbows tolerable is no movement. IMHO, it would either need to cost 4 points, or be equivalent to a Dwarf bow. And just for game flavour reasons, it shouldn't overshadow Elves' preeminence in this area.


Cost increased to 3 points, and -1 to hit at 12" +.

Quote:
2. Lancer doesn't cost enough: He has Str 4, F4 and C4, but costs the same as a KoMT who has 3s. I know he has Def 5, but it's not enough.


Noted.

Quote:
3. I really like the longswordman and his long knife option, though in this case the points might be 1 too high. I'm thinking of the Corsair Reaver, Str 3, 2 attacks, 10 points. Longswordman with longknife has Str 4 (+1 point) and HA (+2 points) for a total of 13. Since you're turning the elf blade into a hand weapon, I think it's okay for the longknife to be 1 point.


True, hadn't thought of it like that. Points decreased.

Quote:
4. Watchers seem overpriced? Maybe 14 points: 9 points for normal warrior, +2 points for armour, +2 for spear and special rule, +1 for fight and courage boost.


Hmm, true, but I think all stats should be priced seperately. 15 points.

Quote:
5. Sadly, the knights are underpriced. 3 attacks on a charge, F5, Str 4 + lance? Yikes! :shock: One, just one, of these can charge Shagrat WarLeader with even odds and a better chance of wounding, and even if he loses priority next turn, has a decent chance of surviving a counter attack. Start with KoDA at 18 points. Add +2 for the Fight and Courage boost (charging a troll or even a wraith is pretty much guaranteed), and +1 for Str 4. Hard to know what the extra attack is worth for cavalry, but I'd say at least 6 points, if not 10. I'd rather have one of these than a Ranger of the North. So somewhere between 27 and 31 points.


I agree they might need a price hike, so let's work it with the Attack included in the cost.

Start from a Son of Eorl (22 points), -1 point from losing 12" move, +1 point for fight value, +1 point for Courage, +1 point for lance. Thus bringing him in at 24 points.

However, we haven't accounted for Glorious Charge. This rule is a HUGE disadvantage to these guys, as they'll hit hard after their first charge, but then they won't be able to call a Heroic Move and retreat, they're stuck there. For the moment 22 points seems reasonable.
Quote:
Anyway, cool ideas. :)


Thangyouvrymuch :-D

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 18, 2009 5:44 am 
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King Under the Mountain wrote:
Start from a Son of Eorl (22 points), -1 point from losing 12" move, +1 point for fight value, +1 point for Courage, +1 point for lance. Thus bringing him in at 24 points.


Son of Eorl has an SBG profile? Where?
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 18, 2009 6:03 am 
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whafrog wrote:
King Under the Mountain wrote:
Start from a Son of Eorl (22 points), -1 point from losing 12" move, +1 point for fight value, +1 point for Courage, +1 point for lance. Thus bringing him in at 24 points.


Son of Eorl has an SBG profile? Where?


May WD.

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 18, 2009 9:41 am 
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whafrog wrote:
Hallpers wrote:
The stats are good, except those for Anarion, I think he should be at least as good as Isildur (what I mean is 3 in Attack & Wound), but that's only my opinion :wink:


Actually I kind of liked this downgrade, sort of like Faramir to Boromir. Also makes him more usable in smaller armies.


Yeah... Good point.

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 18, 2009 11:34 am 
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whafrog wrote:
Actually I kind of liked this downgrade, sort of like Faramir to Boromir. Also makes him more usable in smaller armies.


But that Marshal profile you posted fits the bill for a mid-range Hero. Anarion was a full-blood Numenorean prince. He should be at the same level as his brother...
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 18, 2009 6:51 pm 
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King Dain Ironfoot wrote:
whafrog wrote:
Actually I kind of liked this downgrade, sort of like Faramir to Boromir. Also makes him more usable in smaller armies.


But that Marshal profile you posted fits the bill for a mid-range Hero. Anarion was a full-blood Numenorean prince. He should be at the same level as his brother...


Another good point... Maybe his stats could be something like this (scroll down), but with some changes?

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 19, 2009 1:25 am 
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King Dain Ironfoot wrote:
whafrog wrote:
Actually I kind of liked this downgrade, sort of like Faramir to Boromir. Also makes him more usable in smaller armies.


But that Marshal profile you posted fits the bill for a mid-range Hero. Anarion was a full-blood Numenorean prince. He should be at the same level as his brother...


These are NOT whafrog's rules (although good, his rules are), and so bringing up that as a point is not relevant to this discussion.

However, that being said, in light of recent comments, Anarion's M is now 3 and his F is 6, to make him a cut above regular Captains. Accordingly, points have increased.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 19, 2009 7:04 am 
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King Under the Mountain wrote:
These are NOT whafrog's rules (although good, his rules are), and so bringing up that as a point is not relevant to this discussion.


And by posting these on the internet, and asking all and sundry for their input, these aren't your rules now either...

Why not take bits of both sets, seeing as this now seems to be up for discussion and change, and try to work in harmony.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 19, 2009 6:27 pm 
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gaarew wrote:
King Under the Mountain wrote:
These are NOT whafrog's rules (although good, his rules are), and so bringing up that as a point is not relevant to this discussion.


And by posting these on the internet, and asking all and sundry for their input, these aren't your rules now either...

Why not take bits of both sets, seeing as this now seems to be up for discussion and change, and try to work in harmony.


You'll notice I already have. The basic Numenoreans are identical to those from the other thread, and I've boosted Anarion's characteristics to reflect those of the other thread. I do try.

(But they are still, in essence, my rules.)

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