its 3 points cos its 3 def same as the dwarf heavy armour...
Take mithril armour and a shield for +4def and shielding for 4 points so you get def 7 elves? that def 7 would make a big difference imo against other shooting and any str 4 elites the enemy has. the difference between 5s and 6s to wound is massive in combat, i play against an uruk army enough to know that...

The resistant to magic rule could be dropped i guess to keep hobbits unique. I guess fate could be dropped as well to keep them cheaper so they arent outnumbered quite as horribly. With it they would b about 16-17 points each...more than beserkers and they would just get mobbed and murdered

The only reason to take mithril armour is to also take a shield and hit D7. I'm torn as to whether to make it 4 points or 3. You make a good point about D6 archers, but 4 points seems too much unless it also gives Resistance to Magic or some other benefit.

I think we need mainly to make sure the archers are not more than 5D. no matter they deserve it or not, books wise, but I guess they could create another GC dilema. it could be more precise but game crasher.

may be replace mithril armor with mithril shields for +2D 2 points cost. now they can take heavy armor and mithril shield, and while warriors will get to 7, the archers will not get the +2 from the shield and remain 5D but can still use shielding if they like (in such case they'll probably settle for the normal armor for cost).

F.. S D A W C M W F Pts
5/4+ 3 5 1 1 5 - - - 12 points

War Gear: spear, armor, shield

Optional equipment:
elf blade...1 point
Elf bow, heavy armor, mithril shield...2 points

Special rules:
Light of Aman +1 point: all Noldor have seen, or are directly descended from those who have seen, the Light of the Undying lands. As such, they cause Terror.
Heroic Legacy +1 point: if outnumbered, a Noldor counts as being under a banner. This does not stack with an actual banner.

I still prefer to put the extra fighting die on the Mithril Shield to replace the special rule, and make it a 3 poiter. then the unit default cost will be 11 points only. I see the following benefits:
- Tactically: keep it optional for who thinks he can tactically afford the costy unit where their higher cost could be more justified.
- Cost: they can be fielded without the special ability in small points games, while they can be optionally fielded with the ability at extra cost in larger battles and don't force player to field an expensive unit by default.
- archers will be tempted to buy mithril shields if they want to get the extra special rule.

keeping the flow of ideas here....

_________________
OFTENTIME,THE SHADOWS SERVE NOT ONLY TO CONCEAL THOSE WHO WISH TO DO EVIL,BUT ALSO PROTECT THOSE WHO SEEK TO DO GOOD

But then it's not a Noldor. No reason one couldn't field Sindar + Noldor to get the same tactical options.



This goes to the heart of the challenge of this race: the game by default of its mechanics favours quantity over quality, but can we tweak it in such a way that quality in this case can compete, while being true (as much as possible) to the spirit of the race?

Two other things to consider:
- first, there is no mention of such "special shields" in the literature, so in the middle of trying to tweak profiles to be more book-accurate, we're inventing something that isn't in them.
- second, I was hoping to use the same rule for the Numenorians, if we can get it right for the Noldor.

But you're convincing me about the archers. And if we consider that Uruk-hai are going to get a downgrade to S3, having D6 archers means they'll be really hard to break. So how about we take the Mithril Armour off the table completely and leave the basic equipment as is, which means D5 for archers and D6 tops for the melee line. However, we could make it available for some elites (say a 2 attack guardian type that has no shield option), and for heroes, for 15-20 points.

one point though, I don't think archer could get to 6D with mithril shield as long as they carry there bows.

the best they can get is the heavy armour which is "3D basic+2D=5D", and even if they were given shields or mithril shield, they won't get any extra defence because of the bows.

I also don't like degrading Uruks to S3. I think they were definitely stronger than orcs. and it was explicitly mentioned in the books.

_________________
OFTENTIME,THE SHADOWS SERVE NOT ONLY TO CONCEAL THOSE WHO WISH TO DO EVIL,BUT ALSO PROTECT THOSE WHO SEEK TO DO GOOD

Well, they weren't stronger than Men so...either we make Orcs S2 or Men S4. Gimli at Helm's Deep was fine taking on the Uruk Hai, but not so interested taking on the Dunlending Men as they "seemed overlarge" to him.

But maybe making "High" and "Middle" Men S4 is exactly what we need to do...

Gimli is a Hero and he should have no problem taking out Uruks even with their 6D. and also degrading Orcs would level them with Goblins and that doesn't feel right too.

you may have a point. I took "mithril" out of the profile following the mithril armor and didn't check it in the books. not sure if we can call it Elven Shield to be a very hard but light and crafty shield, but I guess it could give a good 7D warriors without overpowering the archers.

_________________
OFTENTIME,THE SHADOWS SERVE NOT ONLY TO CONCEAL THOSE WHO WISH TO DO EVIL,BUT ALSO PROTECT THOSE WHO SEEK TO DO GOOD

Why are they fight 5? There is simply no reason the elite and most capable elves in the game should not be F6.

It would also allow you to remove the banner effect rule and therefore enable people to field banners. Noldor elves were exceptionally well equipped and the banners they had were really quite exotic and great pieces of art. Having no reason to field these banners would be a real shame (you can't re-roll and re-roll after all).

I know you want the re-roll so as to stop the "bad roll" that can really damage an elven warrior in the game currently.... But that's really why it's so important to take banners in an elven army.

As a round up to my replies in my other threads...

The Tolkien Elf just cannot be represented in this game unless you make the basic elf a hero unit like Rangers of the North. Even then it has the problems you normally have with expensive 1 wound models.

So I have to say, I see no reason to take Noldor warriors over High elves with spears and shields... Cheaper than your alternative, they have D6 which is more than capable enough additionally with a F6 you can keep them in close groups that are hard to break and if you provide a Banner with each group then suddenly the opponent will struggle to bring numbers to bear.

GW hasn't done the elves justice but I would rather use there various elves than they ones here because with careful play they can be far more effective with more simple rules than what you currently have.

That said I would be willing to play test them extensively after my exams and see how your rules fare? I would love to see elves more in line with the books!

Well Brutoni, I've read all your messages and appreciate your points. I agree, elves are not adequately serviced by the SBG or these rules, but I blame that on the underlying game mechanics.

So now that you've spent the time tearing it down, how about building it back up? What are your thoughts on how to fix it? And I don't mean just stating they should have C5 or F6, but the whole package with balanced point costs, keeping in mind the quantity vs quality bias built into the rules.

Ah, sorry in trying to construct valid arguments against your posts I appear to have forgotten to leave some genuine constructive criticism. My only defence is that it is exam season and I also have my dissertation due in soon so I'm a little busy. (I'm not being in any way sarcastic here, I want to iterate that because it can be difficult to read into emotion in the internet.)

How to fix it I am unsure of, a drop in fight could potentially be offset by causing terror. This is an idea you have already picked up on though.

Personally I would go with a stat line along the lines of

Noldor Warrior: Points??
F: 6/3+ S:3 D:3 A:1 W:1 C:5

Special Rules:
The Undying light: The Noldor have seen, or are directly descended from those who has seen, the light of the undying lands and as such contain a measure of that pure magnificence in themselves.
Noldor elves cause terror to all creatures

Warrior skill: Noldor Warriors are ancient and skilled warriors, when a Noldor warrior fights with spears they may treat them as pikes. Noldor warriors wielding an elven blade two handed ignore the penalties to win the fight but keep the bonus roll to wound.


Then throw in the options for war gear that you see fit though the standard Noldor warrior was definitely a spear and shield kinda guy.

Noldor Banners:
The Noldor go to war accompanied by the banners of their families, great works of art and reminders of a proud race now at it's twilight.

These banners grant the banner bonus to all nearby Noldor but at an increased radius of 6". However should a Noldor Banner bearing be lost all Noldor in range of the banner bearers benefits at the time of it's death must now charge the nearest closest enemy model for the rest of the game. They pass all courage tests they are required to take.


Okay, I'm not sure about the points cost though I would keep banners at the usual elf point cost due to the disadvantages that would come with losing a banner bearer.

Obviously this does little to help counter the 1 wound problem that high points cost models have however I think it is a better balance than yours. With the ability to rank up like pikes but keep shields due to having spears you can group your elves close together. The banner having an increased range coupled with the F6 and terror causing abilities should force enemies to be unable to strike as a coherent group. When coupled with your armour options the warriors could go as far as Mithril armour, shields and spears for a F6, D7, terror causing unit that can fight in a concentrated block.

While resistance to magic is apt, due to the SBG's magic being less deadly to groups of normal warrior's I decided to remove that and save on their points cost.
I translated their fighting skill into F6 and bonuses on their chosen weapons while increasing the ability of the banner.

This should keep costs down while allow you to form more capable blocks of elves. Even a skirmish line should be more handy due to them being able to has F6, D6, Terror and wield two handed weapons with no penalties. Throw in a banner bearer with a shield and you are sorted.

I might add in something special about their horns, afterall the splendor of a Noldor division, with it's resplendent banners and clear ringing horns was something that struck fear into the hearts of sauron's minions.

Maybe;

Horn's of Delivery:
The clear trumpet of the Noldor's musicians was often the first announcement of their arrival. As the Noldor battleline marched without fear like a ray of sun into the orc lines the horns and trumpets of the elves rang with the sound of hope and freedom.

In addition to the usual bonuses for a hornblower/drummer/musician Noldor elves upgraded to this role reduce the courage of all evil models within 12" by 1.


coupled with evil's naturally low courage and the ability for your battle line to cause terror you would suddenly have an effective way to cause failed charges and reduce the odds.


Now, this is a little more bread and butter than many suggestions and it's an abstracted way of looking at Tolkien's elves but you are right... The game mechanics do not represent the difference in fighting ability against wounding ability that would allow elves to be represented fairly...

But that's games workshop for you and their insistence to make strength and toughness more important in a fight than finesse and agility.... which goes to show how little they know about armed (or unarmed) combat.

What do you think?

I think these are good ideas, at least as far as flavour is concerned. The only one I have a problem with is the "no penalty for using an elf blade 2-handed". This is more effective than giving them +1S, so cost becomes an issue.

In any case, until you put a point cost on all of this, it's just academic. The point cost is where the rubber meets the road, so to speak.

Both valid points.

As for points cost. I always prefer to lay down my ideas and then let the forum discuss the points cost and all agree on how expensive they should be.

This way I have a wide range of people from all sides of the argument suggesting points costs and I can act as a mediator and final decision making for my unit....

I'm always careful about points and usually end up making them more expensive than they normally are...

So in conclusion,

We need another way for an elven blade model to gain an advantage.... How about

"A Noldor elf may always be supported by a spear regardless of whether or not he is using a two handed weapon or a shield. Note that a Noldor being supported by a shield gains the support attack after the shielding modifier and none of the attacks may strike the enemy."

And for final points... Elves are 7 points at the moment, so I would go for 9 without equipment. Elves with spears, Heavy armour and Shields would be 13 points... Mithril armour, Spears and Shields would be a nice round 14 points.

You could take it up to 10 points.


Suggestions? Comments?

Couldn't this entire argument be decided by simply giving the Noldor 2 Attacks?

Then there would be no need to alter existing banner rules for them, and would alleviate the problems involved with unlucky dice rolls for expensive 1 Wound models. "Lineage of the Firstborn" and its Terror-causing effects would ensure the Noldor would usually face only a few enemies at a time (assuming C 2 orcs fail their tests).

In addition, remember any special rules we give to the regular warriors should also effect existing Noldor heroes such as Galadriel, Gil-Galad, etc.

LOL, you may be right. I had been avoiding it to save points, since if they have full armour and shield they're basically a berzerker (15 points), + whatever points for having better fight and the special rules. I was trying to avoid going over the 15 point mark since it would be pretty hard to make a viable army out of them otherwise.

Dang elves. Might be easier to work on the other races first and pin down their capabilities. But elves are more fun to think about

I agree an entirely Noldor army would be hard to field if they are 15+ points a piece, but if used properly it shouldn't be too difficult to overcome "quality vs. quantity".
Noldor could also then better serve as elites for larger Elven armies- there were many instances in Tolkien's works of Noldor and Sindar Elves fighting together in larger battles such as the Battle of Unnumbered Tears or the Last Alliance, to name a few.

I was just thinking that. IIRC, Eregion (where the Rings were made) was made up of both Sindar and Noldor. By the end of the 2nd and 3rd ages, most of the Noldor were gone. So most elf armies would have been based around Sindar anyway.

I still think differentiating them racially makes some sense, as the racial rules then carry up to the heroes.

I agree, the different types of Elves should be treated as seperate races in-game. The question then is, which race is Elrond, his sons, and Arwen? or Earendil?

IMO, the Noldor warrior profile should be better than any other in the game, on par with the elite warriors and minor heroes' profiles of the 3rd Age. My final suggestion is as follows, though i is much like my first.

F...5/3+
S...4
D...3
A...2
W...1
C...5
Pts...18

Special Rules:
Lineage of the Firstborn
Resistant to Magic

Wargear:
0 point...Handweapon
1 point...Spear, Armour, Shield
2 point...Heavy Armour, Elven Bow, Elven Blade
3 point...Mithril Armour
5 point...Elven Cloak (a model with an Elven Cloak may not also be equipped with armour, heavy armour, or shield)
6 point... Elven Horse

I really hope we can come up with a final Noldor warrior profile so we can make profiles for the Noldor heroes...

did I kill the the thread or is everyone in awe of how perfect my Noldor profile is?

You didn't kill the thread...just busy here and hope to review this next week when I have more time to dig into it. Profile looks fine to me, except the points seem a bit high, but I'll think about it.

Just to throw my opinion into the fray again...

While the profile is very expensive, I feel it SHOULD be very expensive. That way your elves will always be greatly outnumbered. However, they do have a big weakness against their enemies far more numerous archers (while not making viable archers themselves). As a result, they really need to be made more resiliant. Now, giving them an additional wound would be a book-keeper's worst nightmare, so how about something along the lines of a saving throw? Allowing a wound to be saved on a 4+ is statistically equivalent to giving them an additional wound, so would make them much harder to take down. This would take some playtesting, however. My own interpretation of the Noldor profile, based on the one Flame of the West has provided (my changes in bold):

F...6/3+
S...4
D...3
A...2
W...1
C...5
Pts...19

Special Rules:
Lineage of the Firstborn
Resistant to Magic
Light of the Valar (any name will do)

Light of the Valar: When a Noldor takes a wound, the wound is saved on a 4+

For calculating points I compared with the standard Elf profile, allowing 1 point for F/S/D, 3 points for attacks, 3 points for Lineage of the Firstborn, 1 for Resistance to magic, and 3 points for Light of the Valar.

There may be one problem with this. Their terror, high defence (with mithril armour), high fighting skill, and two attacks may make pure Noldor armies boring to play against. While your enemies would be able to grind them down eventually, no one is going to enjoy it. Removing terror may be a good idea. Terrifying armies are no fun.