Ultimate 300pts Army?

General Elessar · **Posted:** Thu May 05, 2011 6:32 pm

Legolas - 90pts
8 Wood Elves with Elf bow - 72pts
8 Wood Elves with spear - 64pts
8 Wood Elves with throwing weapons - 72pts

Totals: 298pts, 25 Models, 3 Might, 11 Shots

I've used this army a few times and so far it's been invincible. For its points level, it has exceptional fire-power, a brilliant Hero, good standard warriors, and decent numbers. The only weakness is the low defence, but as this army spends little time in combat that isn't a problem. Could this be the ultimate army?

The Horde Lord · **Joined:** Wed Feb 23, 2011 6:58 pm **Posts:** 301

I think it can be owned by a similar dwarf army due to much higher defence.

Balin 75
9 dwarves with bow 81
18 dwarves with 2h 144

Ultragreek · **Joined:** Fri Apr 29, 2011 1:03 pm **Posts:** 294

Nice classic beginner army.

Kili · **Posted:** Thu May 05, 2011 6:59 pm

only elven bows are faaaaaaaaaaaaaaaar better than the dwarf bowes+ elves have more movement + woodland creatrues + longer range on bows

Sacrilege83 · **Posted:** Thu May 05, 2011 7:14 pm

^ Can someone say hit & run!

Kili · **Posted:** Thu May 05, 2011 7:17 pm

hit & run! I said it

The Horde Lord · **Joined:** Wed Feb 23, 2011 6:58 pm **Posts:** 301

Elven bows are not far better than dwarf bows. the dwarves will wound on 4+ while the elves will wound on a 6. The dwarves should get 2.25 kills per turn they shoot while the elves will get 1.22 kills (including Legolas). Yes the elves move faster and have longer range but they will need a really large table or an aweful lot of woodland to win.

Kili · **Posted:** Thu May 05, 2011 7:45 pm

why would the dwarf bows kill easyer???? they both have 3str?

The Horde Lord · **Joined:** Wed Feb 23, 2011 6:58 pm **Posts:** 301

Because dwarfs are D6 while elves are D3

Kili · **Posted:** Thu May 05, 2011 8:03 pm

yeah okey, but that does not make the bows less strong, and the elves will hit more often (I think)

The Horde Lord · **Joined:** Wed Feb 23, 2011 6:58 pm **Posts:** 301

I think we might be talking past each other here. My calculations take basis in that these armies face each other which I think I made somewhat clear when I said that the dwarven army would own the elven one. If you want an evil example Harad is good candidate:

Suladan with bow 95
12 warriors with bow 72
13 warriors with spear 78
11 warriors with hand weapons 55

Sacrilege83 · **Posted:** Thu May 05, 2011 8:34 pm

You know what we need here, Spike tv's "Deadliest Warrior".

BlackMist · **Posted:** Fri May 06, 2011 11:43 am

Haradrim Chieftain
15 Corsairs with Shield
15 Haradrim with Spear
14 Haradrim with Bow

Will decimate that Elf army and that Dwarf army...

Kili wrote:

yeah okey, but that does not make the bows less strong, and the elves will hit more often (I think)

Learn LotR maths please. In that example Elves get owned because they die 3 times as often and only hit 1 in 6 shots more often. Wood Elves are one of the strongest armies in the game, but that's at 500-700pts, in 300 they're no good. In terms of Good vs Evil only, Harad is the ultimate counter-army against Elves too.

spuds4ever · **Posted:** Fri May 06, 2011 12:14 pm

Yes, BM is definetely right there. Goblins would also own that I think as the elves just wouldn't be able to kill enough before combat. Off the top of my head:

Durburz
20 gundabads
20 goblins with spear

Noddwyr · **Posted:** Fri May 06, 2011 1:24 pm

Hmm, I like BMs list. I would think you could also do:
Durburz
14 prowlers w. shield
14 goblins with spear
14 goblins with bow

Prefer the Prowlers to the Gundabads.

spuds4ever · **Posted:** Fri May 06, 2011 5:40 pm

Noddwyr wrote:

Hmm, I like BMs list. I would think you could also do:
Durburz
14 prowlers w. shield
14 goblins with spear
14 goblins with bow

Prefer the Prowlers to the Gundabads.

Yes, but they die twice as easily to elves though they do have throwing weapons.

The Horde Lord · **Joined:** Wed Feb 23, 2011 6:58 pm **Posts:** 301

BlackMist wrote:

Haradrim Chieftain
15 Corsairs with Shield
15 Haradrim with Spear
14 Haradrim with Bow

How come I didn't come up with that. Or any of the goblin lists, I am a freakin goblin player. :-X

Strength in numbers.

LoTR math isn't any different from normal math, obviously (I know that you know BM). I'm currently working on improving Lonely knight's "odds of winning a fight" too incorporate wounding. Currently it can handle multi-man combats but are incapable of factoring in if someone have different odds of killing a looser, like if a cave troll and a goblin gang up on WoMT. It's really not hard math but it certainly is a time issue and Excel can get quite messy when there are many formulas.

Beowulf03809 · **Posted:** Fri May 06, 2011 5:57 pm

I would say in defense of the WE list that actual combat tactics need to be accounted for as well. WE spears have the double advantage of being able to support another model as well as shielding if needed. With their high Fight value, I'll often charge one WE against two or more opponents and then shield, effectively freezing those models and having pretty good odds of winning the fight and living another turn. This allows other WEs to gang up on opponent models. And if you provide some spear support to your Fights you have a greater chance of taking down your enemy with the extra dice. The S3 is the only real weakness to the Wood Elves and getting a few dice to roll helps get that 4 or 5 (or 6

) needed to wound.

The presence of 8 additional shots with Throwing Daggers is also a major factor. If you're lucky on how you set things up you can get a full bow + dagger shot in on the same shoot phase, or you have 8 chances to kill on a charge with them or you can do a full move and still throw, allowing you to use them to cover your move or retreat.

Legolas is a great single Hero, but I'd suggest that you may have equal or more success with Thranduil. You loose a couple shots but gain a higher defense hero with a special rule that can turn a game's fortune if timed right. I think either would be effective in this list but you need to play to their appropriate strengths.

I'm not saying Wood Elves are the "ultimate" army, but played well I think the WE list above can hold its own against any other equal point army. 'LotR Math' only gives the foundation for success but your ability to play them to their maximum carries far more weight in your success. You build an effective army list and then learn to play it to it's maximum. I have a very high win ratio with my WEs against Isengard Uruks, Morannon Orcs, and Goblin Hordes and it's only partly due to the early shooting.

The Horde Lord · **Joined:** Wed Feb 23, 2011 6:58 pm **Posts:** 301

Beowulf, the WEs are a perfectly valid option and I have no doubt that you are a terific player, but the three armies you lists have a disadvantage in LoTR math. Morannons and Uruks are S4 (waste) and the uruks are even F4 (useless). The goblins are being owned by your throwing daggers since they only move 5. Yes I am awere that you waste 3 fight points oagainst the goblins but your strength 3 bows come in real handy against their D4 and 5.

Beowulf03809 · **Posted:** Fri May 06, 2011 8:00 pm

Absolutely agree about mathematical disadvantages when matching Army A vs. Army B. There are often times that it's not worth the extra point for shields, for example, because your opponent's average Strength isn't impacted by the +1.

I was mostly trying to point out that assuming an armies success based on the math is only the beginning, at least in SBG (I find the lists themselves have a higher "value" in WotR due to the mechanics of that system). In SBG the math and odds behind an army will be a factor, but no more than 50% of your win...and I'd hazard to say often less. In WotR I put a higher weight on the math of the units and odds compared to what you can do with them.

Ultimate 300pts Army?

Who is online