Great points Beowulf. I find that heroic moves are often used to put mathematical advantages into play by pairing your correct S,D and even F values against your opponent's. When it comes to the dropping shields thing, I hope most players impose a strict WYSIWYG so that, let's say Gondor can't just declare that they don't have shields whenever fighting Uruk armies.

You can always cut off the shields or like I did in the past - swap MT bowman's top with the top of the Knight of MT, effectively gaining a foot shieldless spearman and a mounted archer. You then cut the spear to be smaller and add a cloak to the horseman to be a mounted Citadel Guard

Maths is imho very important in SBG. I even think that 90% of the success comes from the right army combination and only once two armies of the matching level meet each other it all comes down to playing, but even then, knowing what are the more advantageous situations mathematically proves to be key to winning the game, essentially tactics involve making the right decisions and right decisions means making the most optimal moves in the given situation.

About army being most important, let me elaborate: I went to my first UKGT in 2007 and along with 2008 and 2009 GTs I was at the time playing about 4+ LotR games per week, by far the most I have played (I would guess I was then a much better player than I am now), however my armybuilding skills were far below what they are now. 2007, 08 and 09 ended up with 7th, 20th and 18th positions out of average 100 people, which was pretty bad given how much effort I was putting in playing the game. For the 2010 GT I consulted a friend who was a much better army builder (in fact probably the best player I have ever known and one I had never played at the same time) and he helped me build 2 solid armies for the 2010GT. I finished 2nd but that was due to my terrible play in the most important game against the eventual winner of the event. Since that GT I haven't been playing almost at all between tournaments, the number of games I played in 2010 wasn't more than 40 (including 2x 8-game GTs and 2 other 8-game tournaments), so I wasn't really learning anything in-game, I was in fact detracting in skill. In 2011 I built even better lists, consulted that friend again, fine-tuned them to almost perfection (missing a few models in the collection disallowed me to make most optimal lists possible, but I was still pretty close) and most of the games proved that the armies were pretty much playing by themselves, all I had to do is ensure that I don't make stupid plays and use the models properly (unlike the previous GTs I didn't do anything outstanding in my games, just 8 solid back-to-basics matches) and I won that GT... it all really came down to army building, because essentially on the top GT level, everybody knows everything about the game and everybody knows the most optimal moves, there are no 'secret tricks', there is barely anything 'outside the box' these days (last time I made a play that I was really happy about was at the 2010 Doubles with my invention of Heroic Sacrifice - Hero calling a heroic combat, die in doing so, but at the same time counter opponent's heroic combat and disallow opponent to move). Of course you might argue that I got that 2nd and 1st places because I was playing better than before, but I wasn't, I barely play at all these days, my skill automatically goes down over time.

Sorry for the rumble, I was just trying to back up the following point based upon own experience:
Army-building skill >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Playing skill, including knowledge of basic LotR maths >>>>[Insert a million mile gap] >>>>>Luck

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Coordinator of the Great British Hobbit League

There are days I'd put "Bad Luck" way to the left of that chart.

I've never won a game from lucky rolls but I've lost more than a few from bad ones. I had two games in one event where I lost because my force broke the same time as my enemy and I rolled snake eyes for Legolas's Courage Test.

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Wait ye the finish! The fight is not yours.
Beowulf

http://TacticsInMiniature.com

Totally agree with BM. You can't really blame bad luck for anything, perhaps you should have saved some will/might for avoiding fleeing. Besides, wood elves should be able to hold their ground without Legolas considering their courage is 5. If I am allowed to make my own chart:

Army building 20> Lotr math and special rules 10> Tactics 100> luck.

PS: I mean units bigger, not times bigger.

I don't agree. There are however games where you make a bunch of mistakes, then something unlucky happens and then you blame everything on that unlucky event, without realising that if it didn't happen you would still probably lose. That was my case in the only game I lost at the 2010GT - it was Ill Met by Moonlight vs the eventual winner. I had Isengard with 1/3 Crossbows, 2/3 Orcs, Shadow Lord and Saruman and he had mounted Twins, Legolas and about 1/2 wood Elves and 1/2 high elves with shield (no armour). The biggest problem of that game was that in the 1st turn I failed to cast a Sorcerous Blast on 3 dice (rolling 1, 1, 2) that would have been across his shield-wall, so on average hitting about 7-10 elves. After the game I blamed luck, but after chilling out and looking back at that game I managed to highlight a bunch of stupid plays:
- Setting crossbowmen at the front because I wanted S4 to beat his D4
- Using Palantir in 1st turn to gain priority to get that Sorcerous Blast and correct charge off
- Losing Shadow Lord to a double-heroic of the Twins in a weird way
- Staying up at the front as the Twins were coming instead of moving back and using more SBlasts

If I hadn't done half of those mistakes the game might have turned out differently, because it was a minor loss in the end. It was the only game I ever had that I blamed bad luck for the loss, but after a while I realised that I was just playing really badly. Never again have I dared to blame bad luck. You don't win GTs by luck, there's a reason why top 20 players every year are in majority the same.

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Coordinator of the Great British Hobbit League

And the dices?

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I am a ranger of the north.

What about the dices. They are all the same except that the larger ones could make the 6 to 1 ratio a little higher because more mass has been removed compared to the smaller dices.

BM: your mistakes doesen't seem that bad to me. 1. Seems like a good idea. Would you rather have them stay back and shoot? 2. Seems like a good time to use it, would you rather have waited untill the enemy were out of might, which could take a long time considering they had 6 disposable? 3. I see that one, you should have taken more procautions. 4. Fair enough.

Malbeth the seer
Dunedain with spear
20 warriors of arnor
10 hobbit bows

Good suggestion but I think it would loose to BM's harad list. They oly need one or two volley fires to take the hobbits down to 9 and then it's game over.

What about a GC list like this:

5 RoTN w spear
18 RoA w spear
1 RoA

Against the Harad list thats 4 hits when volleying vs Harads 2 and once within proper shooting range: 16 shots hitting with 5.3 killing each turn whereas Harad hits 7 and kills 2.3. Has less guys but more disposable might , if used well I think it could do well.
Only it would have trouble in something like Contest but you could always mount one of the Rotn.

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http://noddwyr.wordpress.com

1 is a bad idea due to it being an 8-game tournament. I wouldn't mind doing it in a 4 game tournament where you really have to go full out to win every game, but in an 8-game one it is better to get a draw than push yourself for a win, especially when you're playing someone who you know (and I knew) is a great player, because that player will gain too big benefit from a win (bear in mind that the GT points system was 35-1 for major, 30-5 for minor and 10-10 for draw, so denying someone a win is worth a fortune if you expect that someone to be the main contestant for the title). We talked the game over with Tom (the winner) online after he was actually surprised by me setting up xbows at the front, because: If I played crossbows at the back, I could then fall back with the Orcs in turn 1, get more turns of blasting and due to having SL be able to win bowfire fight if there would be one. In addition he would not be able to win that game if our lines managed to split because any of his attempts to move closer would be ending up with 2 rounds of 17 crossbows against his D4 and D3 - then even having both Twins and Legolas wouldn't be much help, especially given that I had Saruman, Grima and SL.

2. Yeah it seemed like a good idea at the time, but look at it again (although I didn't mention Grima, so you might not be accounting for him): It's 50/50 for my priority anyway. If I lose, I can call a Heroic with Saruman and my opponent can counter for 2 Might with Legolas (Grima behind him, so he usually won't) resulting in a 50/50 roll. If I use Palantir to win, he can still call a Heroic which I need to counter and... again it's a 50/50 roll, except this time I wasted the Palantir. If I win the 1st 50/50 for priority, then the situation is the same as me gaining priority with Palantir, but we still get a 50/50 roll to win Heroic. So using the Palantir in this situation has no gain at all

The biggest mistake was the set up both in mine and my opponent's opinions. Yet I blamed the luck of the 1,1,2 on the 1st Blast, without realising that I was just playing badly... still I managed a 2nd place because lists really helped a lot. I don't have that report in English, but if you see my blog, there's a link to a Polish version in it and you could use Google Translate if you're interested

Anyway, back on topic

The Shire:
Gandalf the Grey
14 Hobbit Archers
28 Hobbit Militia

This one should do well against that Harad, even though with volley it loses, once it gets to close range it's winning with shooting, then you've got a lot of stones while within 8" and all the time you can be moving and blasting with Gandalf and Blasts do wonders against D4 harad and corsairs

Obviously there's the Grey Company list that owns it at shooting, but it would be pretty weak in scenarios like Take and Hold and others where you need to be moving as well as shooting (but so would the Shire list):
5 Rangers of the North with Spear
10 Rangers of Arnor
10 Rangers of Arnor with Spear

I don't think you can beat that Corsair/Harad list comfortably with any other army...

Edit: oops, didn't notice Noddwyr's post, sorry for a steal if it counts as a steal

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Coordinator of the Great British Hobbit League

That okay BM, glad you agree. For e the best part of GC list is that its cheap. Just one box will do the trick. Shire list is nice as well though I like that.

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http://noddwyr.wordpress.com

Greta lists Noddwyr and BM.

Ahh, Didn't know you had Grima BM, but I guess I should have figured it out myself. Who wouldn't take Grima when you're gonna take Saruman anyway. Out of curiosity, was SL mounted on something?

No, just foot.

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Coordinator of the Great British Hobbit League

Since this is a 300pt list article i may aswell post one i plan on using

Grimbold-50pts
8 Helmingas with sheild and throwing spear-80pts
8 Helmingas with shield-64pts
10 Rohan outriders-100pts

Strength 4 and decent defense on every model along with fate points for all the archers is bound to be good isn't it?
Also are outriders equipped with throwing weapons or is it only bows?

It might seem good, until you break and all your bowmen have to take seperate courage tests 'cause they're hero's....

yh but by that logic rohan outriders are bad models

Well.. sorry to say that but they are pretty bad. You're paying 10 points for a model with D4, bow and 1 fate. The 1 fate is effectively making them D5 against S2 bowfire (most common they'll be facing)... now for 2 points less you can get a Warrior of Minas Tirith with bow and same defence who won't run away as soon as Outriders after the break because non-heroes benefit from Stand Fast. They only really work in combo with Gamlings Royal Standard and Saruman the White (free Might and Stand Fast affecting heroes - that army won the 2009 UKGT), but according to the GT rules since 2010 (and hence many other tournaments) they can't benefit from the Royal Standard's rule.

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Coordinator of the Great British Hobbit League

Humor?

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Wait ye the finish! The fight is not yours.
Beowulf

http://TacticsInMiniature.com