The Half-Orcs or 'Orc Men' are what the film replaced with the idea that uruks were created from orcs and goblins. As said, the Feral Uruk-hai count for that, and there is abosutley no point to give an army two troop types which do the exact same job and are pretty much the same, its like having Morannon Orcs and Gundabad Blackshields in the same army.

Well, my point isn't the Orc-men part, but the ferocious, mailclad, and armed with axes part. Ferals are ferocious, but they're not mail-clad or armed with axes (not to mention incredibly ugly, but that can be remedied), and in that case, Berserker, Wildmen and Dunlendings also do the same thing (hit hard and die fast), as does nearly all cavalry, and a lot of other units, so I'd say that's a bit of a moot point.

My point is that it does not matter what they are armed with or there would be a lot of other new units, dwarves with swords, haradrim with shields, (rohirrim with lances), easterlings with axes, beards and chariots (not Khandish!), mordor uruk-hai w clubs and shields (in WOTR), etc.

What matters is that they are represented, there is no need to re-represent them.

There should be (haradrim with shields are my Haradrim Guard, Rohirrim with lances are called Royal Knights, Easterlings I might make in the future, dwarves with swords wouln't have a different profile from the normal Dwarf Warriors, so that would just need some conversions. Actually, I have made one, after his axe snapped off, and I only had swords as replacement.)

GW's depiction of them is the (stupid and pointless) Feral Uruks. Tolkien described "Orc-Men" armed with 2-handed axes. Apparently, these descriptions evolved into the Uruk Berzerkers for the films. I like the idea of an Uruk Scout unit with 2-handed axes. We saw a couple at Amon Hen in FoTR.

I agree with everything you say, especially the part in bold

The Elven Ballista seems nice. What is its pts value?

About Feral Uruks, as I'm no fan of Isngard, (I don't like an evil army that isn't under Sauron's command), I'm not bothered how themed they are, but if they already have a troop (no matter how bad), then there is no need to replicate it, unless you are even madder than I.

@#$%, forgot the points value.

Well, lets agree to disagree about the Ferals then... It's just, I hate the models, they aren't themed, and the rules mirror the models, so aren't themed either. But I see your point as well.

EDIT: On Isengard: Huge, violent troops that always go on and can be replaced in a matter of weeks? A wizard who can convince his mortal enemy to become his slave? Even huger, more violent creatures that have no purpose in life but to slaughter your enemies? What's not to like? BTW, they are under Sauron's command, only Saruman doesn't realize (or want to realize) it.

I agree to disagree. Also, Isengard Trolls are much worse than Feral Uruks so I don't know why they take all the attention.

Isengard are still puny. Mordor Uruks are better than Isengard ones (in the books, not gamewise). Saruman's trying to copy Sauron and then take credit for it as so many people think he did it first (and they're wrong). That and Saruman defied the Ringwraiths. Isengard are an awful, pathetic attempt at at being evil IMO.

Isengard trolls look good and the backstory makes sense, even if it isn't canon (Saruman used Moria goblins, moria goblins used trolls), while the Feral Uruks backstory makes no sense at all (if you've been tortured all your life by someone, and that someone says: "kill my enemy" are you going to do that.

I agree that Isengard is by far not as strong as Mordor and that Saruman is just taking credit for what he copied from Barad-Dûr, but the Isengard Uruks are better (Ugluks uruks slaughtered Grishnakh's). And what's wrong with defying Ringwraiths?

but isengard is under command of suaron, suaron decived and threatend saruman to "make an army worthy of mordor".

Isengard isn't under the command of Sauron, I'm an Ent, he doesn't say that in the book. Saruman serves Sauron's cause, but not Sauron himself.

The back story for Isengard trolls does nott make sense, the only trolls that a) wore armour and b) could march in the sun (like the host of Isengard did) were Olog-hai, which Tolkien specifically said were only found in the armies of Mordor and Mirkwood (even if Saruman captured some, they are bound to Sauron's will and cannot disoobey him).

And the Feral Uruk backstory does make sense. I presume you have never read the instruction for how to torture someone into your service. Lets take Saruman as the example. 1) Saruman imprisons the feral uruk-hai and tortures them, without directly revealing himself or name, by having Isengard Orcs do the torturing. 2) Every so often Saruman comes to the Feral Uruk in person, and reveals a small act of kindness, in between the acts of brutality. 3) repeat this process until you are ready, the Feral Uruks will hate the lesser Isengard Orc whilst deveoping loyalty towards Saruman. 4) Saruman releases the Uruk and allows him to kill the Orc torturing him 'out of kindness' 5) Saruman reveals them his name, tell them that those Orcs work for Rohan. 6) Set them loose on the Rohirrim and smile evilly.

Mordor Uruk look nice, and are led by the Ringwraiths. Speaking of which, they are awesome, and no high-ranking commander of Sauron should defy them and keep his head. The Ringwraiths are the awesome.

Why wouldn't a cave Troll be equipped with armour by Saruman. Keeps him alive longer, so he can kill more Rohirrim. And about the marching in the sun, thats probably why none were seen at Helm's Deep, but Saruman could have used them in other battles.

Hm, but why would Saruman do that. It sounds like a huge amount of work, and he might as well make them Berserkers, who do the same thing, but don't have to be tortured first.

I agree, Ringwraiths are Epic, but so is Legolas, and he shot a Wraith, so the one does not exclude the other.

I think we ought to make a "Does Isengard suck?" thread in Off Topic, because this will go on for a long time...

EDIT: I forgot to mention, Mordor Uruks don't look half as Epic with a capital E as Isengard Uruks.

Why is Rohan my favorite faction? Hmmm... Honestly, I'm not sure how to answer this question. I guess the best way to explain is that I can relate to them better than the other realms. I also have a interesting trend of liking cavalry-centric cultures. Sorry if it's not a particularly clear explanation.

@WUTM, I still beleive Isengard is a mockery of true evil, concerning elves, look at their chests, thats how you tell. and dunledings are pretty cool, i feel sorry for the 'rightful owners' of Rohan who your horsemen keep mocking after they 'stole' their land. ( ' ' for political reasons ) May I ask you ask why is Rohan you're fave, just curious.

@Telchar, Isengard Trolls suck because they are not Olog-hai or Angmar trolls IMO. Saruman has gone mad, most villains have, including Sauron and Morgoth but madness does not equate whether they are awesome or not. Saruman did go 'mad with power'. Why wouldn't he waste resources, he made many mistakes? I just don't like Isengard Uruk-hai because Mordor Uruk-hai appeared first and I like them more, and I hate it when people either say that Sauron copied Saruman, or (even worse) that Sauron doesn't have any. That is the reason I don't like Isengard Uruks. Warg Riders aren't weak and redundant, they're awesome, it is the beasts and monsters of middle-earth that are responsibe for me liking lotr in the 1st place (it was wargs, mumakil and fell beasts mainly). The Dunledings did ally with Sauron's forces in the second age (i can't remember when, or even if it was Sauron's Orcs or Easterlings). Also, Orc Trackers and Mahud do not suuck IMO, Mahud ride camels and camels are awesome, and Orc trackers are passable.

Cave Trolls are neither of these. And you forgot the standard Mountain Trolls of Mordor, and the First Age Trolls (though those do suck, they got splattered by a single man). He made many mistakes, but not that kind of mistakes. He overestimated his own power, and his ability to control himself, and his ability to control the Ring, and many more things, but he did not waste respources, and I don't think he would. I agree, people who claim Sauron copied Saruman haven't quite got their facts right, but that's not an argument against Isengard Uruks. Read the Hobbit, and you'll see why Wargs are redundant. The other monsters are awesome though. They didn't ally with Sauron, their ancestors fought against Numenor when the Numenoreans began terrorizing them. Orc Trackers are passable, GW's depiction of them is not. Mahud are ugly, painted men posing for Half Trolls but not being them. The camels have nothing to do with them, and I wouldn't consider camels awesome anyway.

What's so bad about GW depiction of trackers?

Cave Trolls are neither of these. And you forgot the standard Mountain Trolls of Mordor, and the First Age Trolls (though those do suck, they got splattered by a single man). He made many mistakes, but not that kind of mistakes. He overestimated his own power, and his ability to control himself, and his ability to control the Ring, and many more things, but he did not waste respources, and I don't think he would. I agree, people who claim Sauron copied Saruman haven't quite got their facts right, but that's not an argument against Isengard Uruks. Read the Hobbit, and you'll see why Wargs are redundant. The other monsters are awesome though. They didn't ally with Sauron, their ancestors fought against Numenor when the Numenoreans began terrorizing them. Orc Trackers are passable, GW's depiction of them is not. Mahud are ugly, painted men posing for Half Trolls but not being them. The camels have nothing to do with them, and I wouldn't consider camels awesome anyway.