First of all I would like say I'm glad to be back, not completly thrilled by the new rules and releases (looking at DD), but still glad.

Second of all I wanted to know where you guys stand on WYSIWYG. You see there is this guy I am gonna play against who uses dwarves, but he really hates 2h weapons, and so says that he is not going to pay for them (which you have to according to the new rules) and not use them either. He doesen't have enough other dwarves to ame a proper size army without them. The problem comes when I, a WYSIWYG lover doesen't use the same Devlan Mud. For instance, I don't walk around with my MG Prowlers and say that they have shields (or hand weapons for that matter), I accept that they have 2hw and pay the prize. The same things go for orcs, where I am in the exact same situation as him. So what are your thoughts on WYSIWYG in this case specifcly and in general as well?

Cheers!

I'm flexible myself. Sometimes I want to game another royal guard but he has my banner, so I say to everyone before the game starts "this guy with the banner isn't a banner bearer, hes just a normal royal guard." and everyone nods and life goes on. I'm not going to fault someone on the fact that they cant afford the cashola right now to buy another set to fix their WYSIWYG. HOWEVER, if someone I play with attempts to use equipment they didn't pay for, then there is trouble. Otherwise, im fine with it

Obviously there are situations where he would have to accept WYSIWYG, such as at a tournament.
However, as a general concept, I don't have a problem with people doing what your friend does, mainly because:

1. Some models have very limited poses, some which do not even fufil all the options presented, and so you can't blame people for not fielding models which aren't available.
2. Some people don't have the time, money, or might be otherwise unable to convert models suitable for their own needs.

I would say that unless it is something stupid, such as counting a foot model as having a horse, I would be fine. However I'm risking getting into the topic of proxies, no I'll stop there.

Obviously you make the final decision, but I'm sure your friend would be quite annoyed if you stopped playing him because some of his Dwarves had an extra hand on their axes.

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Agree with the second post above, so long as players discuss their lists and models before the game, there should be no problems. The thing that gets me is unpainted armies

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I defintly see where you're both coming from, but why can't he just pay the extra point (and get a 2h axe), I do it with my orcs and prowlers. People do it with their harad spearmen, despite there being no need for that many spears.

because it's not his play style like he said (and that's pretty hard to change) and when there is a close game it could bring out some tension. For example: "yea, you win, but if I could have not paid for those 2H units, I woulda got another dwarf and I woulda won." And when you create drama in a game then obviously it wasn't fun, and therefor the goal was not achieved and nobody wins.

Heck, I've had drama over someone measuring my movement distance, then moving accordingly out of range, and when I measured I could make the charge, there was tension. In the end, I agreed not to charge him with my hero abiding by his measurement and ended up winning anyways.

To cap off, a friendly game is supposed to be just that. If your going to put money or some title on the line then by all means, hold him to the letter of the law.

So am I alone in thinking that he is being really cheesy?

Well your free to tell him off and say that either he sucks it up or he sells his soul to GW and buys figures he doesn't need to and paint them up you won't play with him... But don't be surprised if you have to find someone else to play with

You're complaining about a bit of wargear In WotR I once let an opponant proxy Spider Queens as Dwarf King's Champions.

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In the example given, its relatively easy to ignore WYSIWYG. Its easy to just decide that no Dwarves have 2 handed axes and to remember that throughout the game. But I would hold it to every model - its all or nothing. I would not let my opponent say "these 4 Dwarves have hand weapons, and these 4 Dwarves have 2 handed weapons". I also would not allow my opponent to pretend those models have shields too - that would not be as easy to remember. In some cases, I would be even be happy to put up with proxies like the Rohan Royal Guard example Battalia mentions - using a banner as a normal model.

However, I would definately put the onus on my opponent to remember these things, and to remind me throughout the game.

e.g. I once played a Warhammer 40K game against a Necron player. This was my first game ever against Necrons so I was unfamiliar with their rules. In Turn 2, I shot and killed some models from a Necron Destroyer unit. To represent the We'll Be Back Rule ("dead" models are revived in the following turn on a certain dice roll), he removed the stalk/stem from the Flying bases, and put the models back on the table. In Turn 3, my Kayvaan Shrike and Assault Marines arrived from reserve in an Outflank move. I moved them right up to his Destroyers and hordes of Warriors, intending to Assault them. Only, he waited till my Assault Phase to remind me that the two models nearest the board edge which I was trying to move into base contact with were dead, and waiting to be revived at the start of his next turn (this was an extreme long range Assault, using Shrikes Fleet special rule which lets them move 12", run another D6" then Assault 6"). This resulted in my Marines being three inches short of the destroyer unit, so the Assault failed and the marines were gunned down by the Monolith and hordes of Necrons without doing diddly squat. Suffice to say, I was not the least bit pleased.

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In fairness that is how you are supposed to play it in the (old) Necron codex (I dont know about the new one as I havent read it). You opponent isnt actually under any obligation to remind you in these circumstances (although it is the friendly thing to do). So its not really like non WYSIWYG where you have to agree these things before the game (unless of course in your example you did).

To answer the origina poster, I wouldnt have a problem with people using 2 handed weapons as hand weapons, hell I wouldnt mind them having shields too as then you could mentally treat all of the warriors without bows the same.

It was more to illustrate my point of expecting my opponent to remind me which were alive and which were dead. Especially when it was obvious that I was intending to assault them. And it was my first (and only ever) game against Necrons.

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Fair enough. Personally I modelled up a box worth of dead Necron models back when the old codex first came out, that way there isnt any doubt.

The guy removed them from their flying stands and placed the models direct on the board. But I've seen people do that often with those types of models (jet bikes, flying creatures etc) so mentally it didn't compute that they were dead.

He only reminded me the momen when I was actually measuring and I anounced that I was within Assault range by 1". He should have reminded me at the start of my movement phase.

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If there are no models for the profile he wants (no shield, no 2H) you're forcing him to either convert models or take extra points to no purpose. I don't know if it's cheesy. Knowing how much WYSIWYG means to you, maybe it's cheesy of him not to accommodate, but is it worth the game? Why can't you compromise: one game he has to pay, another he doesn't?

Personally I wouldn't worry about it (as long as there is no confusion), whether I privately thought he was cheesy or not. I have some friends who want to measure down to the millimetre when you charge them, but are pretty nonchalant about taking an extra 1/2 inch when moving themselves. Not that it helps them in the end I don't get enough games in as it is, I can't be picky.

Just to add my voice: I favor understanding. For a multitude of reason.

Though the most important is HOW much does this affect your own fun?

I game with someone that games differently than I do (leap-frogging bases, measuring hastily and then moving/placing the model a tad further forward, climbing/jumping and oooh don't get me started on there desire for minimal terrain, etc.) BUT...BUT... they are the only player in the area that plays regularly. Fact is, they are the ONLY player in the area. So.....I'm happy enough to be able to have what I have. So I favor ...understanding.

In the end its what makes me happy. In my minds-eye I see that I win in different ways: A great blocking move, stalling a advance while I'll swipe around the opposite flank, a great dice roll, seeing my capt die heroically. All the while, we smack-talk, laugh, and talk about daily life after the game. So, if this guy (I notice you didn't write friend) wants to proxy models then I see no harm, but again its what makes you happy.

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As someone who is building an army of Rivendell Elves...I tend to ignore WYSIWYG outside broad strokes. I mean, how am I suppose to model Elven warriors with hand weapons and shields properly? As much as WYSIWYG is a really useful tool, it starts falling apart when you have to put a lot of work into models just to get them a certain way (and a really basic way, might I add). So, I think as long as the table knows what is up, then it's fine. Tournaments you do have some trouble (lots of people, lots of different ways to game, single expected ruleset), so I would expect near complete WYSIWYG for it. But honestly, it's not that big a deal, and I can't even begin to consider how it could be construde as cheesy.

For models that exist I play wysiwyg if the other player has been at the game for a while.
If they are new I think leniency is called for.
If models don't exist I think you should be kind. Dwarves come in three basic types for warriors in a box you get shields, bows and two handers. In the rules up until now the two handlers were free. Until some plastic one handed models come out it's not cheesy IMHO.
I agree though that it's all or nothing or some easy distinguisher like color of uniforms or bases or something so you're not being taken advantage of.

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He constanlty uses Durin as Dain since he got Balin in the Kazad box, I am completly fine with this since it's about saving money, not points. He also has a plastic Gimli which sometimes represent an additional Iron Guard or Ballista Crew member. I am also fine with this since it's not about maxing your army, it's about saving money.



You're not supposed to. Elves are not supposed to have shield and hand weapon. If you're willing to trough convertion and put in an effort, I'd be fine. Like WoMT are not supposed to have bow and spear, but if you're willing to put in an effort, I'd be fine. Haradrim are not supposed to come with just hand weapons, it's either bow or spear, but if your'e willing to put on an effort, fine.

Here are some other examples from my gaming group. One guy uses a lot of wood elves, but use the same Devlan Mud (IMO) that the dwarf player use. Don't buying the glavies, which his guys are equiped with. (Note that I am completly fine with cloaks and throwing dagger, since they can't be seen anyway). This buggs me because it's a point saver as well.

I my self have deprived my warg riders of shields, because I needed the shields for Mordor Uruks and Gothmog (ft and mt). (Where the other shields are I don't know at the moment). WhenI don't have enough orcs with spear or shield, I fill up with orc's with 2h weapons (and actually buy them).

Rant over

I'm not [word deleted] at you guys or anything, it's just that...

I am very strict about this rule, what you see is always what you get... Probably because my country also is very strict about it