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 Post subject: How to kill 72 orcs with 1 attack
PostPosted: Wed Mar 09, 2011 11:49 pm 
Wayfarer
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Hi all, I'm new to The One Ring and just thinking of getting back into WOTR after I played a little when it was released. I've already got my Evil army sorted (Misty Mountains) from 2009 and am thinking of investing in a Good force. I have been looking at Dwarfs and have come accross a combination of rules which is rather nasty.

Take a Company of Khazad Guard and add in Gimli and Aragorn - the dwarfs are already S5 and have +1 to their dice for two handed weapons. Aragorn then gives them a further +2 to their dice. Now if Gimli was to call Epic Rage and Epic Rampage in the same turn the dwarfs would be S9 with +3 to their dice. Striking opponents with D9 or less each attack would auto hit and combined with the effects of Epic Rampage would allow them to make another attack which would also auto hit, and so on - basically killing every single model in the Formation you were striking without having to roll a dice - which could be as many as 72 if it had 9 full Companys.

Sorry if this has been covered many times before, just wanted to check if this is a legal tactic?

Cheers, Richard.


Last edited by Rich1982 on Thu Mar 10, 2011 8:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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 Post subject: Re: How to kill 81 orcs with 1 attack
PostPosted: Thu Mar 10, 2011 2:06 am 
Elven Warrior
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It is legal, expect odd debates though. Some people will swear black and blue that if there is a rule in WHFB it is 'suposed' to apply to WOTR.

Don't forget the heroic fight, no reason why you couldn't be killing two formations a turn.

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 Post subject: Re: How to kill 81 orcs with 1 attack
PostPosted: Thu Mar 10, 2011 2:24 pm 
Elven Warrior
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Xelee is completely right. In the wotr FAQ they confirm that a 1+ to hit is becoming automatic.

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 Post subject: Re: How to kill 81 orcs with 1 attack
PostPosted: Thu Mar 10, 2011 5:03 pm 
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<chuckle>

Looks good on paper. You might pull it off once or twice but after that....

The enemy will either feed you little formations of 4 or so companies to tempt you into burning up Might, or just keeping you away from where the real action is. Remember, you've tied up at least 425 points in that unit, IIRCC so even if you take out two 9 company formations of Orcs or Goblins (360 points) you've not really payed for them - and who is going to have 1 company of Khazad containing Gimli AND Aragorn.

What is more likely to happen is that you're regular opponent will start fielding Ringwraiths, if he doesn't already, and drain Gimli's Might with Black Dart's before you get a chance to use Epic Rampage.

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 Post subject: Re: How to kill 72 orcs with 1 attack
PostPosted: Thu Mar 10, 2011 8:25 pm 
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Cool, cheers for the confirmation guys. Just to let you know I'm thinking of taking 6 Companies of Khazads as my main heavy hitters (not just the one). Yes it's expensive but with the killing potential (even withouth Rage/Rampage) an opponent will have to devote a lot of resources to stopping it. Killing 9 Companies of Orcs was just an example, would also work with a Dragon, Balrog, etc so could easily be worth the points sink - especially if you can pull it off twice!

I'm trying to make a Good list that can stand up to a tournie style multiple Ringwraith list so nasty little tricks are what's needed. Any advice on what else is good to counter Ringwraiths? King's Champion suicide Epic Challenge missions?

P.S. Fixed the poor math in the original post.
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 Post subject: Re: How to kill 72 orcs with 1 attack
PostPosted: Thu Mar 10, 2011 8:41 pm 
Elven Warrior
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Hi Rich1982, the key issue I see with the tactic is not the enemy tailoring their list and going with MSU (which you can tackle by other means), it is simply Khamul.You will want to make sure you duel him out first, fortunately Aragorn is in your list-build and is one of the few heroes that can reliably take on a Wraith and actually get the kill.

If he is in there, his formation will survive round one, and possibly even round two. Then the combination of his reflect damage and damage taken from elsewhere will likely mean that you lose that unit. A perennial issue with Khamul is that if your highest value unit is within 1' of him, they will recieve any and all bounce-back damage. On the other hand, beware the trap of making any units too big - Wraith players will be away laughing if you do that! :)

The most reliable method of coping with a Wraith heavy force is still multiple decent formations, so that you can be confident some charges will go off, and can get the effective +2 strength vs Morranans simply via flanking with basic guys.

Because of the list structure, the combo is less reliable with Dwarves but can be made to work more easily with eg Gondor and their 2HW units.

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 Post subject: Re: How to kill 72 orcs with 1 attack
PostPosted: Thu Mar 10, 2011 9:36 pm 
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Ah yes, Khamul - now he would cause me a problem - Gimli could easily end up Epic Rampaging through my entire Formation if Khamul's got enough models of his own to soak up any roles less than 5. Aragorn would have to show his value in this case.

How many 'decent' Formations do you think you need then when playing at 1500-2000pts - 6, 7, 8, more?

Also, say I was to start a Dwarf army (which I'm still undecided on by the way) and I allied in Aragorn; what would you suggest I bring in from other races for the remaining 175-300pts I'm allowed for allies to negate the inherrant issues with the Dwarf options? KoMT? Elves? Gandalf? Ents? Giant Eagles?
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 Post subject: Re: How to kill 72 orcs with 1 attack
PostPosted: Fri Mar 11, 2011 2:19 am 
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Hi Rich1982, I have no 'head' for 1500-2000 pts, I am so used to 1000pts. To give you an example though: at 1000 pts a Mordor list will almost always have 2-3 (and I can tell you what the first 2 will always be!) Wraiths. If it is 2, it will be because they took Gothmog, and he is probably more worthwhile than a 3rd Wraith, so usually 2 Wraiths.

So I played a game vs Mordor last night (batrep to come soon), I had 4x4 strong Dunlending formations, 1x6 strong Wildmen, and 1x4 Strong Uruk Cross bows. So that was five melee formations and I was working on my opponent by trying to gang up on my targets each round at least 2:1. Now, one or two people here think that big formations are better, and I dispair - my opponent would certrainly have been enjoying his easy win if I had given up all my flanking opportunities, let him have his way with Pall of night, and just left him to grind me with his efficient troops and free Wraith abilities. However, even just keeping the units at 4 rather than 6 is not enough. Mordor has some of the most points efficient infantry in the game, and I could only keep up because Dunlendings are similarily good value (though str 4 vs Def 4(6) hurts) and there was enough space on the board to isolate my targets like that.

So I suspect that @ 2000 pts you need to be thinking both about what is the minimum effective unit size, and get used to taking your chances to seize the right positions and how bounce your Epics around to get the maximum flexibility out of the army as a whole. So you also want to make sure Balin and other good value Epics are in there too. That is just going to take practice, I am afraid. However, if you learn to hold parts of the enemy army (say those with Khamul) with just enough force, even relatively expensive Dwarves should be able to gang up somewhere else. At the start of the game, the key Wraiths are a relatively scarce resource (in relation to the proportion of combats they affect) so you need to use that time well.

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 Post subject: Re: How to kill 72 orcs with 1 attack
PostPosted: Fri Mar 11, 2011 3:23 pm 
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Hey I've been reading this thread and thought I'd point out a couple things from my experience. I've been playing War of the Ring since it first came out in Canada and have fielded Fallen Realms, Rohan and Dwarven armies.

First, if I remember correctly, only Dwarven Warriors, Archers and Rangers can form in 6 company formations(I could be wrong). It seems a small thing, but I think its key to remember that Elite Dwarven Formations can't take the same heavy casualties of human formations.

Second, Epic Rage is both a blessing and a curse. Having a Strength of 9 is totally awesome, I must admit, but being reduced to Defense 3 will see you taking heavy casualties. This is especially true if the enemy formation strikes at the same time as Monsters or Calvary, in which case they'll cut through your Khazad Guard in seconds BEFORE you even get to strike back. Even if you're fighting a nine company strong formation of Goblins who strike at the same time, they will be dealing at least 40 attacks, of which approximately half will manage to Wound. If you are absolutely sure you want to use Epic Rage with the Khazad Guard, I would either add Legolas so they strike at the same time as Calvary or add a Epic Hero with Epic Sacrifice such as Merry or Captain Deorwine (Yes I do use Deorwine) so I can 'save' two thirds of the wounds rolled against them.

Personally, I like the idea getting the Host of Erebor and adding in Durin's Guard at full strength(4 Companies). Then add the Baruk Kazad Fortune, Aragorn, Gimli and a Epic Hero with Epic Defense to Durin's Guard. This formation will be getting Strength 5 attacks with a +5 To Wound Goblins/Orcs or a 4+ To Wound anything else(Balrogs and Dragons come to mind) plus if I'm facing a swarm of infantry with only Strength 3 or 4, Epic Defense will keep these Dwarves alive. The big problem with this is that the Formation is so expensive by that point that you basically have to carve up a couple of Dragons to get your points back.

As for your Ringwraith problem, Khamul by himself will play havoc with your army and another wraith will make it far harder. However, I have found that a few well-placed warmachine shots BEFORE his formation gets within 12" of your army can possibly pull it off. The problem with this tactic is that your opponent will realize what you're doing and hide Khamul's formation from your warmachines until too late or (more irritatingly) add the Shadow Lord to it. Another possibility is to slam a hard-hitting formation into Khamul's and have a Epic Hero declare Epic Sacrifice. It should nullify a fair amount of the hits reflected onto you, thus starting a war of attrition you might be able to win. Thirdly, you could get a really potent duelist hero to Heroic/Epic Duel Khamul and kill him before the formations strike each other. Granted, this tactic is incredibly risky and you better be prepared to spend Might to maximize the number of hits on Khamul because you want him dead as soon as possible. Beyond that, I would avoid Khamul's formation at all costs.

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 Post subject: Re: How to kill 72 orcs with 1 attack
PostPosted: Fri Mar 11, 2011 9:09 pm 
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WayUnderTheMountain wrote:
First, if I remember correctly, only Dwarven Warriors, Archers and Rangers can form in 6 company formations(I could be wrong). It seems a small thing, but I think its key to remember that Elite Dwarven Formations can't take the same heavy casualties of human formations.

Good spot, at least that's 100 more points to spend elsewhere! 8)

I do like your suggestion to take the Baruk Kazad Fortune, not sure you need Durin's Guard for the +5 against Orcs/Goblins as +4 is enough to get auto hits against anything D7 or less. Khazad Guard on their own would suffice with the Epics joining - that's 200 points saved, not sure you need Gimli either as you have to take Dain as part of the Host. Although the 150pts you need to spend to take the Host of Erebor and the Fortune does rather limit this set up to 2000pts plus games.

4 Companies of Khazad Guard, Dain, Aragorn, Balin (for the Epic Def) and Baruk Kazad Fortune a snip at 775pts!
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 Post subject: Re: How to kill 72 orcs with 1 attack
PostPosted: Sun Mar 13, 2011 11:56 am 
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I would use The B a z o o k a. :P

Seriously though, I often wonder at people coming up with power-gaming tactics that are largely dependent upon the circumstances being perfect for their diabolically cunning plan to succeed. The real world is not like that, and even fantasy worlds accept to some extent that things rarely go according to plan (just ask Mr S, recently made homeless when his property in rural Mordor was demolished).

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 Post subject: Re: How to kill 72 orcs with 1 attack
PostPosted: Sun Mar 13, 2011 12:27 pm 
Elven Warrior
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"Seriously though, I often wonder at people coming up with power-gaming tactics that are largely dependent upon the circumstances being perfect for their diabolically cunning plan to succeed"

Shame that this tactic works for every company in the game and kill every formation in one turn.

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 Post subject: Re: How to kill 72 orcs with 1 attack
PostPosted: Sun Mar 13, 2011 1:05 pm 
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I had to laugh last night. I guess this thread helped.

Ever since WoTR came out, almost every Saturday I haved faced Mordor - with between 4 and 5 Wraiths. Almost every Saturday I lose. With Elves I lose dramatically. With my horde, hero-lit e Gondor I lose in the last turn. (the latter is thanks to the poor quality of GW products: the black dice that Mordor roll can surely not have been tested for fairness. I mean, 21 hits out of 40 attacks needing 5+; every Wraith getting his 3 spells off, Khamul reflects back 18 of the 31 hits the knights inflict, etc., etc.).

In sporting terms I'm like the Italians at Rugby. I like the game, especially as almost every decision, every unit, every dice roll seems important; but I rarely win. What makes it worse is that I bought and painted his Mordor army and picked the Wraith heavy army for his second battle after he lost heavily in his first ever game.

I digress, as Ronnie Corbett would have said in the 70's (younger readers might need to Google 'The Two Ronnies').

So I succumbed and chose Dwarves last night. Out of 1500 points 575 points were invested in Aragorn, Gimli and 4 co. of Khazad. To try and counter his 'Pall of Night' barrage I also added Rhadaghast.

Turn one, he advanced with a horde of 64 Orcs lead by: Khamul, the Dwimmerlaik and Gothmog (to counter any duels - Dwimmerlaik drives up the cost of Heroic Duel and Epic Strike whilst Gothmog counter duels, for free, any Hero foolish enough to try to take on a Wraith). Just for good measure, he threw The Betrayer into the unit. Even Dwarves arent going to last long against a unit of S5 (or 7, he gets lucky a lot) Orcs with re-rolls.

As per bl**dy usual, he covered my front line units with three Pall of Nights. Two on the unit of axe armed Dwarven Warriors containing Rhadaghast, Gimli and Aragorn, just to make sure Rhadaghast couldn't undo his handywork. Foolishly, as it turned out only one was on the Khazad Guard to the right of the Dwarven Warriors. In fairness, the Khazad Guard were obstructed from moving towards him, so he thought, by some ruins.

My turn to move.

Aragorn, Gimli and Rhadaghast dash over to the Guard. Rhadaghast sends the clouds scurrying away with his 'Call Wind'. Then they move forward through the ruins without hindrance, thanks to Rhadaghast's knowledge of hidden paths (Beastwalk). Even then he was not worrying as I was about 9" away, so he didn't even try to charge the Guard. The Guard then just charged the distance thanks to the Beastwalk and two companies managed to get into contact. Fortunately they were on the edge of his front line, away from Gothmog and his dark companions. Gimli calls Rampage. Aragorn calls a Duel and kills Khamul. Gothmog instead of going for Gimli, hacks down Rhadaghast. Combat is simultaneous and I let him roll first. With re-rolls and the carnage that Gothmog inflicted as he cut his way to Rhadaghast I've lost about 12 of the Guardsmen.

I smile. He wonders why (you've guessed, he'd forgotten about Aragorn's influence on the scores needed to hit).

Without picking up the dice I asked him if he wanted a re-match :)

I then explained why his unit was destroyed. The look on his face was priceless

In fact he was so gutted and disturbed that in the rematch when, after a very cagey game (Gimli and Aragorn had to keep out of the way as he tried to 'Black Dart' them), I managed in the last turn to do the same thing. He conceded - despite the fact that this time I hadn't managed to slay Khamul!!!!

Oh! Italy also managed to win that day.

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 Post subject: Re: How to kill 72 orcs with 1 attack
PostPosted: Tue Aug 02, 2011 11:56 am 
Elven Warrior
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only one thing to add: legolas with swift strike so you need only one companie if the enemy is infantry. maybe exchange gimli for dain and add gandalf to get might points with counselor(on a 6 you have 2 extra) to do that trick you use each turn(I made that trick for evil to!)

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 Post subject: Re: How to kill 72 orcs with 1 attack
PostPosted: Tue Aug 02, 2011 4:59 pm 
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mastermanje, I do not mean to be offensive, but your thread-necromancy is becoming rather irksome. Thread-necromancy is when you reply to a thread that has already died. This thread finished five months ago! What's the point in replying to it? Again, I hope I am not offending you, but it would be better for all of us if you didn't continue resurrecting old threads.

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 Post subject: Re: How to kill 72 orcs with 1 attack
PostPosted: Wed Aug 03, 2011 2:33 am 
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I complained about this same thing, but do not worry too much about it. If you play WOTR with high point levels 2000+ then the game will be more balanced and things like that, though rediculous, will not hurt much. Remember, the loss of 9 companies of orcs is only 135 points.

His might is limited and you can get three such units for the cost of his. I learned to keep throwing formations against units like that and wear them down. Meanwhile, I use bows and magic to pick them off as well. At the right time, I then use my good units to counter them, and by that time my might advantage, and his casualties, most always ends in my victory.

Brian
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 Post subject: Re: How to kill 72 orcs with 1 attack
PostPosted: Sat Oct 27, 2012 4:13 pm 
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Back to the original idea. Make it only on formation and add legolas and gandalf. Legolas for swift strike and gandalf because of Counsellor and Epic Renewal to give gimli more might. Also only epic rage if you need to (in most of situations strength 5 is still enough to pull it off)
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 Post subject: Re: How to kill 72 orcs with 1 attack
PostPosted: Sat Oct 27, 2012 6:26 pm 
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I always wonder why people think this overpowered - you could just take 5-6 full formations of Morannons for this price, keep out of the way of the uber-formation, kill the rest of his army, and rear-charge (avoiding contact with Gimli's company, ergo the combo), and kill the buggers. Then when only Gimli's company is left, you charge in with two squads, he kills one, you kill him with the other.
Or you take the MRAF and Swoop Attack +SfC them to death
Or a Corsair Gunline with the betrayer
Or Saruman+Druzhag+Kardush raining Bolt of Fire and Exsiccate on them every turn and spawning creatures behind them.
Or an Uruk-Hai Demolition team
Or...

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 Post subject: Re: How to kill 72 orcs with 1 attack
PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 12:08 am 
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Quote:
Then when only Gimli's company is left, you charge in with two squads, he kills one, you kill him with the other.

In that case if you were Gimli's formation I would reccomend calling Heroic Fihgt
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 Post subject: Re: How to kill 72 orcs with 1 attack
PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 4:46 pm 
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He'd still be dead before the second fight

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