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 Post subject: How to beat this list?
PostPosted: Sun Aug 11, 2013 9:11 pm 
Wayfarer
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So I thought I would take a friend through a learning game, he said he had got some stuff cheap and wanted to play to understand the rules a bit more.

To my surprise he turned up to the game with a unbeatable list, which as follows:

Warband 1
Treebeard
Ent
Ent

Warband 2
Tom Bombadil
Goldberry

I think he was just taking the [word deleted] and I had no answer for it, I play Angmar by the way.
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 Post subject: Re: How to beat this list?
PostPosted: Sun Aug 11, 2013 9:17 pm 
Elven Warrior
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What scenario were you playing ?

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 Post subject: Re: How to beat this list?
PostPosted: Sun Aug 11, 2013 9:23 pm 
Wayfarer
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Just a straight up fight, he wanted to learn the rules without complications
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 Post subject: Re: How to beat this list?
PostPosted: Sun Aug 11, 2013 10:23 pm 
Elven Warrior
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lots of orcs led by barrow-wights
definately take a shade for this list(don't listen to the marsbar concerning them) and a troll, maybe burduhr, if you ally in a taskmaster that would work very well

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 Post subject: Re: How to beat this list?
PostPosted: Sun Aug 11, 2013 10:46 pm 
Elven Elder
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Lol that's an easy one to beat in a straight up fight me-thinks. As for his list Bombadil and Golderberry are not "without complications" lol Id say they are some of the most complex.
Its a 730 (so round up to 750?) point fight. Here's a good counter-list for

Angmar
Warband 1
The Witch-king of Angmar (max M/W/F) + Horned Fell Beast and Morgul Blade
12x Orc Warriors

Warband 2
Shade
8x Spectres
2x Orc Warriors
Cave Troll

Warband 3
Angmar Orc Shaman
12x Orc Warriors w 2h Weapons

Total 727 points (so youre 3 points under)

Here's your strategy with this list:

take about 8 Orcs and tie up Tom and Golderberry (just stay in their way you cant fight them and hold them off).

Use the Witch-king to wear down treebeard with magic or compel/transfix the regular ents. Use his morgul blade to instant kill 1 regular ent.

Use the Specters to move the ents apart from each other (they have to pass 8 courage tests each turn to not be moved), combine them with the Shade to make the ents easier to beat and kill. Mix in orcs (with and wihtout 2-h to ensure you win fights and strike wounds).

Use your Cave troll with the previously mentioned Orc/Spector/Shade formation and kill the ents quickly. Then overwhelm Treebeard.

Also your Orc Shaman should cast Channelled Fury so your units will be even harder to kill.

You Win! The End lol

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 Post subject: Re: How to beat this list?
PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2013 6:53 am 
Elven Warrior
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Tom and Goldberry are not able to die and can not be used outside the scenarios where they are designed for.
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 Post subject: Re: How to beat this list?
PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2013 6:56 am 
Elven Elder
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imrail wrote:
Tom and Goldberry are not able to die and can not be used outside the scenarios where they are designed for.


Yes they can, GW got rid of that rule when they released the new sourcebooks. That's why they increased their points by double. Someone even took them to the doubles at WHW in june. They are very handy in all hero armies.

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 Post subject: Re: How to beat this list?
PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2013 8:04 am 
Elven Warrior
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Wow! Really. I was not aware of that either - I guess that's whats happens when you haven't played in a while.

I think James has already given one of the best answers you'll get then. Trolls + Orcs if you dont have magic, but it really is necessary I think and try to kill them a model in one turn.

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 Post subject: Re: How to beat this list?
PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2013 11:12 am 
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Thanks for the troll and orc list advice but it would still not work, even if I do kill the ents and treebeard it will still be a draw as tom and goldberry will always pass their courage tests and then we cannot hurt each other.
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 Post subject: Re: How to beat this list?
PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2013 11:17 am 
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I'm sure there must be a rule that if only tom and goldberry are left in your army, you lose. ???
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 Post subject: Re: How to beat this list?
PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2013 12:32 pm 
Elven Warrior
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Ah I don't have the sourcebooks, but I can't find the rules either in the small Hobbit rulebook. (Or army builder)
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 Post subject: Re: How to beat this list?
PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2013 12:38 pm 
Elven Elder
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LordElrond wrote:
I'm sure there must be a rule that if only tom and goldberry are left in your army, you lose. ???


There used to be but now there isn't a listed one.

My advice on them is make it a Kill-Points game. Tom and Goldy-locks cannot hurt anyone so if they are all that remain then the game is over. They may not have died per say but their continued existence means nothing for Middle Earth's survival.

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 Post subject: Re: How to beat this list?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 13, 2013 6:33 pm 
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JamesR wrote:
Use the Specters to move the ents apart from each other (they have to pass 8 courage tests each turn to not be moved), combine them with the Shade to make the ents easier to beat and kill.

If I'm correct GW FAQ'd that and made it so that a model does only have to do one courage check every turn for that reason. So which means that if he passes the first, he gets immume to A Fell Light Is In Them of all other Specters.

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 Post subject: Re: How to beat this list?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 13, 2013 8:18 pm 
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castellan 83 wrote:
even if I do kill the ents and treebeard it will still be a draw as tom and goldberry will always pass their courage tests and then we cannot hurt each other.


No offence but I really don't get your opponent's attitude if I'm honest. If he wants to learn the rules it seems very odd to turn up with what is, at first glimpse at least, a cheesy army that obviously requires a fairly sensible grasp of the rules to think up :roll:

The obvious weakness of this army is that it's going to massively struggle to win recon and domination and I think could be easily outplayed at hold ground and high ground - I think if you're going to come up with a nasty 'how can it be beaten' style list then you've gotta be willing to play the real scenarios. There's nothing wrong with playing a last man standing style game to learn the rules but then it doesn't seem right to me to turn up with a list intended to manipulate that situation to your advantage, as you say it sounds to me like your opponent was indeed extracting the urine.

However, it's all fairly immaterial as, IMO, the list isn't that competitive, there's been good advice so far but I think most armies would have a decent shot even in your 'wipe each other out' situation.

All you need is a bunch of troops to surround Tom and Goldberry (as suggested above) and then constantly chuck your far superior numbers into the ents and surround them. Put a hero into each combat each turn and heroic strike, you'll easily beat the ents and should be able to take them down without too much trouble. T&G's rule only helps if you don't kill the model in one turn which you should be able to do fairly easily thanks to the Ent's large base size. They also don't have M/W/F so only benefit from the extra wound. Treebeard will be trickier than the others as he can counter heroics, has fate and can get them back via T&G (unless you've done as suggested and kept them far enough away) but the same trick will eventually bring him down.

Obviously high courage models (or Fury boosted models) are good for this to ensure the charge. I don't have a lot of experience with the Angmar list but I honestly think you could beat his army with a list comprised entirely of 3/4 captains, 3/4 shamans and a giant horde of orcs (with a nice smattering of double handed weapons). That's before you even consider all the tricks that Shades, Barrow Wights, Spectres etc. can bring to the table. If you really want to seal the deal ally in Saruman who can just immobilise them on a 2+ every turn, you'll find yourself with plenty of firewood before long :-)

If you get to a point in a 'kill everyone' scenario where your opponent only has T&G left your opponent should concede defeat as no-one can do anything from that point and clearly his filthy little plan hasn't worked. Anyone who argues the game is some kind of never ending draw isn't worth playing against IMO.

Play him again and crush the list with the tricks above, he'll go off the idea pretty quick :rofl:

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 Post subject: Re: How to beat this list?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 13, 2013 8:24 pm 
Elven Warrior
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Also I will add here, that in tom and golberrys rules it says
all good models within 14cm/6" pass all courage tests
As such the spectres are only good for wounding against the courage value
they simply cannot use the fell light rule, unless the ents are out of range of the other 2

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 Post subject: Re: How to beat this list?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2013 2:05 pm 
Elven Elder
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Denizen wrote:
JamesR wrote:
Use the Specters to move the ents apart from each other (they have to pass 8 courage tests each turn to not be moved), combine them with the Shade to make the ents easier to beat and kill.

If I'm correct GW FAQ'd that and made it so that a model does only have to do one courage check every turn for that reason. So which means that if he passes the first, he gets immume to A Fell Light Is In Them of all other Specters.


I by no means am trying to be argumentative here but can you point me to where? I don't have any Spectors yet but I was planning to buy several just for that rule. In the Moria& Angmar faq I cannot find anything limiting the rule

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 Post subject: Re: How to beat this list?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2013 3:58 pm 
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I'm by no means certain of this (don't have my books to hand) but if memory serves, in the courage section of the main rulebook it says you only need to take one courage test of each type per turn or something similar, that might be what Denizen's referring to. I could be wrong though.

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 Post subject: Re: How to beat this list?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2013 4:06 pm 
Elven Elder
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All this talk of 'I don't have my rulebook but..' :shock: anyway, I found what everyone is looking for regarding courage. Page 47.

Quote:
If a model passes a courage test caused by a special rule or ability, it automatically passes any subsequent courage tests it is required to take because of the same special rule or ability for the rest of the turn.


Everyone happy now? So no multi fell lights on the same model. That wasn't hard was it?

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 Post subject: Re: How to beat this list?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2013 6:06 pm 
Elven Warrior
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And back to the point some more, no fell light full stop if either tom or goldberry are within 6" of the ents, to begin with guys, auto passing courage tests

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 Post subject: Re: How to beat this list?
PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2013 9:58 am 
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I'd actually like to see this battle. It's not that cheesy, I mean they are all woodland creatures. They may be in different forests but we could say this was back in the day when ents roamed all over middle earth.
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