Ok, let's move along with the discussion then as Telchar says.

So, the character of the week. Or perhaps, a pair of characters? Meriadoc Brandybuck and Peregrin Took, our star hobbits of War of the Ring.

Each has a unique sacrificial ability to modify dice rolls, and gains extra steadfast empowerment when near to specific characters.

Have you used them, and if so, how? Are they worth the points? Remember, they have might, and count as epic heroes in their own right.

Only as points filler when I have nothing else to put in lol. They usually get forgotten about.

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Interesting thing to say, considering they cost the same as Cirdan. As I play Gondor, I've been meaning to put Faramir and Pippin together, since they aren't all that expensive. The occasional epic defence could also be very handy in a tight spot to put the already hardy WOMT to d9, and with Pippins steadfast rule in play it will help with a fight you know you might lose.

hahaha you made me laugh out loud (LOL)

back on topic:

i sugget couragous intervention is pretty good in a heroic duel!

plus u get to use epic defence(pippin) once and have a steadfast of a 5
epic sacrifice sucks tough.. has anyone ever used it ??

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"His people were of great strength and stature, bold and steadfast, mighty among the Children of Ilúvatar."

I never use either Merry or Pippin, as I find that Haldir and Cirdan are much more effective alternatives.

Never used them, in SBG or WotR. I haven't even come round to repainting the models after stripping off my horrible beginners paint job, over 1 1/2 years ago...

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"... Telchar wrought it in the deeps of time."
-On Andùril, The Lord of the Rings

oke but has anyone ever used epic sacrifice? can't inmagine any scenario in wich it is usefull!

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"His people were of great strength and stature, bold and steadfast, mighty among the Children of Ilúvatar."

I played against a Numenor army the other week, wherein my opponent used Elendil's epic sacrifice. It was a bit of a gamble, but it paid off for him, at the cost of an incredibly expensive hero. In that case it might have been a bit of a waste, and it probably still is on a 75 point hobbit, but if you know for sure the fight is lost, it might (read might) help turn the battle in your favour. I personally wouldn't use it, as that hero might provide a more useful at the double! roll the next turn, or even jump into another formation.

I think Epic Sacrifice is more in line with thematic battles.

yeah thats true. i guess it would work against a formation which uses epic rampage on you.

last time I faced dain in a khazad guard formation he used it against orcs.. because of the2 handed weapons and the orc bane special rule they only had to roll 3's. pff destroyed the entire formation(4coy orcs) in one turn! i guess it would be use full in such a situation.

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"His people were of great strength and stature, bold and steadfast, mighty among the Children of Ilúvatar."

Well, against power gaming (such as two handed weapon dwarfs and epic rampage) I think it's only fair to pull out your own special rules to try to reduce the damage. I lost an entire formation of Osgiliath Veterans to Gimli and Khazad Guard, all because of epic rampage. I had tried to duel him, to get rid of him, to no avail.

What do you mean by that? any examples?

I guess it's always best to get the hero killed asap but dain has R4 !!


OFFTOPIC sorry back to hobbits

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"His people were of great strength and stature, bold and steadfast, mighty among the Children of Ilúvatar."

HOBBITS

Example of utilising the rules to your advantage when against an attacking formation of two handed dwarves with Dain/Gimli calling epic rampage.

1st step is to try not to gibber like a girl at the prospect of losing the formation (it has happened to me on more than one occasion.)
2nd step - epic defence (from a hero like Pippin) to bulk up the troops (this puts WOMT at def 9 - definitely a hard target). Epic sacrifice on a hero (such as little Merry) to minimise the damage further.
The final use of the hobbits here is the fact that if (when) you do lose the fight, you're more likely to be steadfast.

Pow, back on topic!

haha hardest thing to do!

I guess the hobbits are worth their pionts in the WOTR game. If I'd field an army of rohan or gondor I would use them in a battle of about 2k. Any smaller games and it's not worth it.. you could better get more WOMT or RoR

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"His people were of great strength and stature, bold and steadfast, mighty among the Children of Ilúvatar."

I once saw a battle of full WoMT and KoMT, commanded only by Pippin. It sure was a horde, and made for a very funny picture

Denethor: "My captains have deserted me. Master hobbit, YOU are the only one fit to lead my hosts."
Pippin: "Me? Are you frikkin' insane?"

Beyond that, I have no idea what might be a good use for them. The chance to be steadfast is nice, but not really worth it, and beyond that, they're just duel liablities.

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"... Telchar wrought it in the deeps of time."
-On Andùril, The Lord of the Rings

Worse, I once saw a whole Isengard host led only by... Gollum. (yes seriously)

It was wrong on so many levels, and in an official WotR tournament at GW HQ too! The army was beautifully painted and converted, so it wasn't some random cheese in a pick-up game. By round 2 though it was sussed by the organisers and he was made to lose a Troll and get a proper Epic.

Anyway. wrt Merry and Pippin. Like so many of these minor heroes their usefulness depends on your style of play and what you build around them. If you go with just loads of infantry and min-max the system for the 'best' army, then yeah the hobbits aren't the best choice.

However, the Epic Sacrifice or Epic Defence can possibly be useful, but isn't why you would take them.

The extra steadfastness again nice, but only a relatively minor buff after all.

They can function as an effective Captain, yes they cost 25 points more and have one less Might, but the reroll Courage tests including AtD! Which means they are less likely to fail than a standard captain (~17% vs ~ 28% if my Maths is correct). So a Hobbit led formation is more mobile, and better able to pass Terror Tests etc. Nice but again maybe not a decisive reason to use 'em.

But the thing that distinguishes Merry and Pippin above all is their 'Courageous Intervention'. This is like an instant 3 Might points spent at once, and suddenly 75 points doesn't look so bad for 1 official Might point and these three "extra", even if the hobbit is removed after. Where this might best be used is in conjunction with a hero killer or Might-wells like Boromir Or Aragorn. Just like in the film (and book) The hobbit can make a difference and get that Pesky Witch-King or whatever you need dead... dead.

So I suggest if you have a largish host, Merry and / or Pippin could prove useful in their own right, but if you are planning on some assassination (and remember that Courageous Intervention can't be drained by pesky Black Darts) then a hobbit could be handy to call in to make the difference.

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All good points there Daersalon. I agree, the three points that you can change a dice on is very handy, on the caveat that you've used/are using the might point that the hobbits have first (there's no point wasting a might point after all!)

Switching it up a little this week, I was thinking about the obscure evil heroes. Looking at Mordor, and thinking about wraiths, I wondered about the wraiths that few people use, such as the Dark Marshall, and the Tainted.
Have you seen them, or would you use them?

I would never use the Shadow Lord or the Tainted, because their special rules simply aren't as powerful as the ones that the other wraiths have. Also, the Undying would only be good if you are a very lucky spellcaster, as it's hard to pass that many focus rolls enough for the rule to be worth the points.

The Dark Marshall looks very good. Imagine sticking him in a formation of rubishy orcs and having the wounding against average men (C3) on a 4 with 2 xtra As per company and also everything around having courage in comparison to elves. Sounds like a good bargain to me.

Ps. You should change the topic title so that it says ringwraiths rather than cirdan.

I've fielded Cirdan a few times, as you said, more because of his background than his actual abilities on the field-he happens to be one of my favourite Tolkien characters.

Not a bad choice at all and good for his points, but his Resilience lets him down-best to keep out of harm's way at all costs! I do think that he is woefully underpowered and I wish that he took some form of weapon with him to the field (instead of just his pyjamas as Bilbo pointed out!), but as luck would have it epics fight in the manner of their formation anyway.

His magic can be useful but I find that it's his Gift of Foresight rule that is the most useful thing about him-on average it should be saving 1 in 6 which doesn't sound that useful, but with a bit of luck it might be able to pull you out of some nasty situations-every life counts, particularly in an Elven force!

Cheers,
Gandalf

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A lord of wisdom throned he sat,
Swift in anger, quick to laugh,
An old man in a battered hat,
Who leaned upon a thorny staff.

Any ringwraith is worth twice his points, so I'd definately use them if I had a Mordor army. Apparently the Tainted can be very useful if you insist on building an Angmar army...

I'm no expert on Ringwraith rules, so I don't have a lot to say on them, really...

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"... Telchar wrought it in the deeps of time."
-On Andùril, The Lord of the Rings

I think the best Wraiths are Khamul and The Betrayer.

I usually deflects any hits on khamul on my opponent which works great. It really helps him survive and kill more enemys.

The betrayer has his rerolls in archer formations as well! pretty cool even though orcs don't shoot that good. It helps alot in fighting too.

The Dark Marshal is pretty good as well but only if you have lots of orcs! (it boosts their courage which is nice for mordor AND gives you the opertunity to give one formation a Fight of 5

Don't really use any other wraiths.. Witch King s*cks if you ask me.

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"His people were of great strength and stature, bold and steadfast, mighty among the Children of Ilúvatar."