So, I had a bout of insomnia tonight, and whafrog's "Fixing the Armor Flaw" thread got me thinking about an old idea I had to convert the SBG to a d10 system. I tried to work out some of the kinks, and I know that all of the maths don't line up perfectly, but I think it's pretty close. I am probably going to playtest it some with my son this week. Partially, I was trying to fix the Strength/Defense issue, and also speed the game up a little by allowing both sides to try and kill the other each turn, as sometimes games can drag on if you're not rolling many 6s. So, here is what I came up with:


Shoot Phase
When rolling To Hit, use the models Adjusted Shoot Value and attempt to roll at or below their Adjusted Shoot Value on a d10. If the model moved during the Move phase, he adds +1 to his To Hit roll, unless it is a throwing weapon.

Adjusted Shoot Value
6+ —> 2
5+ —> 3
4+ —> 5
3+ —> 7
2+ —> 8

Duel Roll
At the beginning of the Fight phase, each player rolls a d10 (or 2 or 3, depending on how many Attacks they have) for each model in base contact and compares it to their Fight value. If they rolled at or below their Fight value then the opponent is pushed back 1” and that player gains Initiative. If both players succeeded in their Duel roll, or if both failed, neither side is pushed back or gains Initiative.

Models that are supporting do not make a Duel roll, but may make a To Wound roll.

To Wound Rolls
After the Duel roll, the player with Initiative may attempt to slay his enemy. He rolls a d10 for each Attack in his profile. and compares it to his Strength value. If he rolled at or below his Strength value, he has wounded his enemy. The enemy may then make an Armor Save against any wounds by rolling at or below his Defense value. If the enemy is not killed, then he may attempt to strike back in the same manner. If neither player had Initiative then the players strike at each other simultaneously. If neither model is slain and they are still in base contact at the end of the round, then the fight will continue on into the next turn.

Courage
When testing the model’s Courage, use the Adjusted Courage Value and attempt to roll at or below the Adjusted Courage Value on a d10.

Adjusted Courage Value
7 —> 9 and re-roll if failed.
6 —> 9
5 —> 8
4 —> 7
3 —> 6
2 —> 5
1 —> 4

Well, that is that. I'd like to know your thoughts, and feel free to rip it to shreds. I promise not to get my feelings hurt.

_________________
Respectfully,
Jonathan

Do what is right, love mercy, and walk humbly

Battle Companies

Looks good, but playing will tell

One thing: with Armour Saves, Sauron can never be wounded as he has Defence 10!

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Better, though difficult, the right way to go, than wrong, though easy, where the end is woe. John Bunyan - Pilgrim's Progress

Interesting, and it rings a bell...did you post something like this a few years ago? I've been here too long...

The only real sticking point for me is that the defender in a duel gets to strike second, if they survive. This means that high-D heroes are going to own, since they can kill even if they lose the fight. That, and I have a negative thought bubble that pops up when I read "armour save" Never did like that about Warhammer.

What I like about it is that a D10 would give more increments to work with for Fight, Strength, and Defense, plus the Fight score would gain far more importance. It would make it much easier to model some troops being able to handle multiple opponents, and would probably reduce the quantity bias that's built into the current game.

However, you'd have to re-cost every. single. profile.

@Erurainon the Trombonist -- Forgot about him. Yeah, he would have to be dropped down to D9. I think that he is the only model that has a 10 Strength or Defense.

@whafrog -- Now that you mention it, I probably did post something like this before. (I've also been here too long!) Like I said, it was an old idea that your thread brought back up. I'm fairly certain that the Duel roll part of it is new, though. Yes, high Defense models would be tough, but it's not like they aren't tough now. As a former Warhammer player, Armor Saves never had a negative connotation for me. I always thought of it as Warrior A made a good maneuver that would have killed Warrior B, but his strike was deflected by Warrior B's armor/shield.

I don't know why you would need to re-cost every profile. Models already have a cost that is higher or lower based on their profile characteristics. With this mod, none of the values have changed, just how they are used. I'm sure that some models would end up needing to be tweaked, but you could certainly start with the points cost they already have and then adjust only if necessary.

I understand that this is just a house-rule type thing, and would probably never see the light of day outside of someone playing a few games like this for fun.

_________________
Respectfully,
Jonathan

Do what is right, love mercy, and walk humbly

Battle Companies

Just did a test-run with the following forces:

Son's Dwarves
2x Shield, 2x Two-handers, 2x Dwarf Bows

My Angmar Orcs
2x Shield, 2x Spear, 2x Two-handers, 2x Orc Bows, Wild Warg

It seemed to flow fairly well. Everything worked as it usually does. Dwarves were better archers and killed both of my Orc archers (who couldn't hit the broad-side of a Beorn). His guys didn't wound any more frequently than mine, but were tough nuts to crack. There were a few fights where one side won the Duel roll and killed the enemy before they struck back, and there were many where they were striking simultaneously. One thing that came up was that we had to come up with something to do for shielding. We decided that a model who shielded could not strike the opponent, and in return, the opponent's Strength received a -2 penalty. It's important to note that trapping was a little more difficult because you couldn't trap someone unless you won the Duel roll to push them back. Both forces were Broken at the end, and like a standard game, my Orcs crumbled and fled the field without a Hero there to keep them in the game. As we played, it sped up considerably as we began remembering what rolls were necessary to wound/save/etc. My son, who is ten, liked the fact that in a fight both sides could try and kill each other. He said it made more sense, since in a real fight, both combatants would be going for the kill.

All in all, I'd say this works for standard troops. We did not use any Heroes, so it would need further testing with the full range of Heroic actions. Also, we did not use any of the special weapon strikes for this initial test, just to keep things simple.

_________________
Respectfully,
Jonathan

Do what is right, love mercy, and walk humbly

Battle Companies

Thematically it would make more sense for me if shielding would give you a re-roll on your armour save. I'm not sure what the odds are for that as compared to the -2 strength though....

I will pretty much repeat what I said last time you did these. I applaud your effort in terms of balancing but I don't like the fact that you want to make SBG more like Warhammer. The way you can strike and be struck in the same turn is bad enough but the armour saves are just ghastly and horrible. Please keep your WFB rules away from Middle Earth!

I still like you personally though

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"I am the Flying Spagetti Monster. Thou shall have no other monsters before me"
-FSM.

@theavenger001 -- The problem with re-rolling an Armor save is that as the Defense value increases the effectiveness of shielding increases, whereas the penalty applied to the opponent's Strength gives a flat benefit no matter the Defense/Strength values.

@GothmogtheWerewolf -- I agree! I wouldn't want LotR/Hobbit to become like Warhammer, but there are elements of the game system that work very smoothly and could help overcome the tendency of LotR/Hobbit to become a game of who can roll the most sixes.

_________________
Respectfully,
Jonathan

Do what is right, love mercy, and walk humbly

Battle Companies