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 Post subject: Army Hero Rankings
PostPosted: Fri Jan 24, 2014 8:05 pm 
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Just a little idea because of some conversations I had in the army help forum.

Basically, you rank all the named heroes in an army from most useful to least useful and say why you thought they should be thought of like this.
Even if you have little experience, comments on thoughts about how they might be used are helpful :D .

For example- Harad
1. The Betrayer - Poison bonus for this army is dangerous, but put him on a fell beast and he benefits from Bane of Kings! Oh and a ringwraith - magic galore.
2. The Golden King - Serious profile would already make him a fearsome troop killer but his ability to bribenuke heroes in the endgame seal his rep as a true Harad warlord. However, his weak stats in fight terms may render him vulnerable to uber-heroes.
3. Dalamyr - A hasharin, so a contender already against regular troops, but smoke bombs give him a unique option v.s. powerful heroes. However, his lack of might can undermine him. Also, do all Harad heroes suffer form fight deficiency? Must be the diet.
4. Suladan - Cheapest 3 attack 3 wound hero? Yeah! Good cavalry general and leader, but suffers from fight (sigh) and fate deficiencies that bar him from a higher spot.
5. The Knight of Umbar - A ringwraith, yes, but I consider him overrated. Copying fight doesn't work v.s. heroic strike. He has reduced magic and unlike Khamul or the Betrayer no real combat power against regular troops.

All IMO of course. If this works I will update to another faction later! :D

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 Post subject: Re: Army Hero Rankings
PostPosted: Fri Jan 24, 2014 9:13 pm 
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Hmm, funny thing is I disagree with you on every one of those heroes regarding harad, but I feel like that is because Harad is suchn a varied list with so many different playstyles - I tend to spam offensive models like half trolls and reavers and thus don't need big heroes, I rely on Corsair Captains, Taskmasters, and Mahud kings to save the day.

However with every other army in the game generally the cheap named heroes (Rumil, Faramir, Eowyn, Arathron) are ALWAYS the best choices, but if you wanna take a whole load of really deadly troops like Iron Guard or feral uruk hair you are safe just taking captains to save you points (although some scumbags like Dr.Grant take the OP troops and the named heroes).
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 Post subject: Re: Army Hero Rankings
PostPosted: Fri Jan 24, 2014 10:36 pm 
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Numenor
Isildur: For his cost he, is very good, even without the ring, his Fight, attacks and might mean he can take on enemy heroes and monsters and mow through troops, plus his courage keeps them in the fight.
Captains of Numenor: Cheap, yet have Fight 5, 2 might and the defence of any other captain of men, so quite good, but I will almost always go for Isildur first due to his higher courage primarly.
Elendil: My favorite model, and he is quit potent, yet he cost the same as Isildur and a captain, or a captain and a whole warband. I would say he is about 5-15 pts overcosted, though in bigger games he is okay.
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 Post subject: Re: Army Hero Rankings
PostPosted: Sat Jan 25, 2014 12:39 am 
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Point for point on high elves IMO:

1. Elladan and Elrohir: two heroes much better than captains for less than 2 captains! 3,2,2 each gives them some seriously powerful heroic abilities and the opportunity to have 3As each is amazing. Only downsides are that they have to lead the same warband and the unbreakable bond special rule.

2. Gil-Galad: the best hero available to the good side, except for Boromir otWT :boromir (Aragorn :aragorn: suffers from lack of D, horn, shield and that mostly, he can only use one might a turn, and can't lead any troops, but that's another story). With his insane fight value, enemy heroes will more often than not waste their might by heroic striking and still not getting up to F9 or 10. With Aeglos, which is like a 2 handed weapon with burly, he can wound anything pretty easily (Can you feint with Aeglos? I'm not sure myself. It is a spear, but it has a long blade on the end). Feinting is ideal most of the time for him, as the -D3F won't be able to take him below the F of your opponent. An armoured horse is always a good investment for him, just keep him in cover until the lines close in more, or, as with all powerful mounted heroes, they won't be powerful mounted heroes anymore, just powerful heroes lol! His only real weakness is his lack of fate, but this is negated when you give him a shield and suddenly he is D8 (6/4 for s3). He also has 3s in all the right places (apart from fate). A great hero and about level with the twins for me, but I had to put one of them first!
P.S. Sorry for the essay about Gilly.

3. Erestor: D7, 3F, re-rolls in combat or with throwing weapons? Yes please! Erestor is a beast at pretty much everything. He seems to survive most games for me, but, as with all high elf heroes, they all have their limits, and it is easy to over-estimate them, and they will be trapped/ swarmed and there are only so many times fate and a high D can save you. His only real weaknesses are that he lacks might, so it's best to use him in an army that has a hero with 3M in (would have to be one of the big 4 for high elves, but I've found that he works best either with the twins or Arathorn, as I ally in GC from time to time).

4. Glorfindel, Lord of the West: Has all of the 3s in the right places (A, W, M, W, F), an amazing fight value, and D7 and resistance to magic if you give him the Armour of Gondolin (which you should). Give him Asfaloth, but only if you know you aren't up against bows or if you know you can keep him in cover most of the time (same problem as Gilly and all other amazing mounted heroes). And, like Erestor, he has a tendency of not dying, which is always good.

5. Arwen: For me, the remaining heroes are ones I try to avoid taking.
Arwen dies too quickly in CQC, but if you give her an Elven Cloak, she will at lest get to CQC. Natures wrath and F6 is all very good, but when you think that she'll be used mostly as a cheap hero to lead a warband, or as a caster, she is outmatched by the Galadhrim Stormcaller, who has an extra spell, higher D, and the ability to regain will.

High Elf Stormcaller: I haven't given him a number, as he isn't a named hero, but I thought I might as well put him in his place in the order as then I'll have done the complete set. In my mind, he is definitely inferior compared to the Galadhrim Stormcaller 90% of the time! but this Stormcaller can give everyone around him more will, which helps rather a lot if your name is arwen or elrond or if you are trying to resist spells, but Lindir does both of these things better, although he isn't in Erigion and Rivendell. Call Winds is an under-estimated spell (but it isn't in my area anymore, I wonder why?...). it is best like a wood elf sentinel's song is used- to blow away powerful models, such as trolls, or banners, although it is different in that you can't move them towards you to slaughter them, but it can be resisted, so it is best not used in heroes.

6. Círdan: Cirdan's stats look dreadful on paper, but, in a game, his spells can be extremely powerful, even over-powered if you pass the aura of dismay roll first time (looking at you here, GBHL James). But, he has 1 fate, might, attack, D4 and is unarmed, so you have to keep him away from like everything as he will drop even more easily than a fly if exposed (more like a rock dropped from the Empire State Building). And is practically useless if he fails his spells.

High Elf Captain: Much cheaper than Elrond, and better in CQC and more survivable than Gildor, but still over costed compared to other captains and especially Rivendell Knight Captains. Remember that he is basically only a normal captain, don't over-estimate him, and give him a shield for when things get messy. I only ever use them if I need a hero at this points cost and I have already used Erestor.

7. Elrond: Elrond is in 7th place, unless you also take Lindir, in which case he's like 4th or 5th. He is undoubtedly an amazing hero, but he cost too much in points. Give him armour and a horse if he is leading knights. The thing with being a caster and a warrior is that you can cast if you get charged first. This is the second big problem with Elrond. However, he has 3s in all the right places, high fight, but not overly high for an elf hero and D7, which you'd think would give him good survivrability, but, as he cost so many points, he is either fed a warrior a turn or killed by arrows (like how the Persians fired them at Thermopylae, although, unfortunately, fighting in the shade won't work in this occasion. You look at Elrond's stats and you think wow, then you look at his points cost and you think he's ok, but then that the warrior/spell caster hybrid doesn't usually work, and he becomes a bit of a points drink, although he is still worth it with Lindir I think.

8. Gildor Inglorion: Some people think that Gildor is amazing, but I think he is rubbish. He has an Elven cloak, do he won't be killed by bow-fire, and he can immobilise powerful stuff and he can move 8" but he is almost as weak as Círdan in combat and is supposedly a combat hero. The thing is that he has 1 might, D4 and 1 fate, so he is near to incapable of heroics and will die extremely quickly for a model of such a points cost. He seems to always get killed by regular troops in combat, as the three things that he lacks are the 3 things that really stop him from dying.


9. Elrond, Master of Rivendell: Foresight and Wrath of Bruinen are cool, but are they really worth an extra 45 pts? IMO, no. He has a low defence for such a high costing model, and suffers from the same problems as normal Elrond- that Gilly and Glorf are better at fighting and that arwen or a Stormcaller are better for spells.

This has taken me nigh on 90 mins to write, so to anyone who is reading this, thanks for reading to the end, and just one person reading all this will have made it all worth it.

EDIT: Elrond, Gilly, Glorf, Gildor and Erestor all cause Terror, which is good as it means that it is easier for you to pick your fights as you are less-likely to be charged. Especially useful if said hero is mounted.

Thanks,
LordElrond
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 Post subject: Re: Army Hero Rankings
PostPosted: Sat Jan 25, 2014 8:43 am 
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-SM I'm purely speculating with Harad heroes from their stats, so it's interesting to hear from people who play with them a lot. I totally agree about the Damrod, Eowyn thing though.

-ZS My thoughts exactly on Numenorian heroes, except that I really like that the captain can take heavy armour.


-LE Wow, that's a really in depth analysis of the high elf heroes! :D I'm surprised you don't rate Gildor, since he allows for Noldorin Exiles, but that's the cost of not wearing armour I guess. I'm surprised that you think Elrond has low survivability, since he has VIlya, but it's really good to hear all these details. Just facinating.

The Eastern Realms Rankings

1. Amdur: The go-to man for any Easterling army at 500 points and above. He's not a combat manic, so it's easy to overlook him, but he works in perfect tandem with his pike blocks, allowing them to take on heroes with his high fight value. He can surround, Heroic Strike, and get his might back after striking the killing blow. Plus he's a banner. His only real weakness are some poor secondary stats (courage, fate, Will) and low defense. Keep him behind the line until close combat starts because he is seriously weak against archers. Every time I have used him he has performed like a boss.
2. Khamul the Easterling: Used on fellbeast and only at the higher point matches. On foot he just lacks killing power, but when he gets wings he jut mauls everything in sight. He can keep going with essence leech, can eat heroes alive with magic and rend and has good courage as well. However he lacks access to some spells like black dart or command because they are so hard to cast for him, but the really important ones are within reach. His might isn't stellar for such an expensive hero either.
3. Easterling Warpriest: Channeled fury for an all D6 pikeblock? Are there any real problems with this, unless you fight them?
4. Easterling Captain: Good all around and for adding might, which an easterling army sometimes lacks. Good and cheap, with high defense.
5. Khandish chieftain: Good fight, but a bit expensive. Lowish defense, but much the same role as an easterling captain (might)
6. Khandish King (on Chariot): Don't overlook this guy just cause he's oop. He's still a fast moving F6 monster on wheels and a banner. Course he's kind of expensive and really only beneficial if your going khandish. And low attacks... But he's still durable, and has rend, barge and hurl.
7. Dragon Knight: The only completely useless hero in this army. Expensive. vulnerable to arrow fire. Independent (even more expense!), so can get isolated and killed easily. Good combat ability but blood and glory only works against heroes. Will die against most heroes except captains, who he will struggle to kill if they are +D6, which is 70% of all the captains in the game, and dunedain. Do not take. Damages the integrity of your army.

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 Post subject: Re: Army Hero Rankings
PostPosted: Sat Jan 25, 2014 8:48 am 
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VandalCabbage wrote:
-LE Wow, that's a really in depth analysis of the high elf heroes! :D I'm surprised you don't rate Gildor, since he allows for Noldorin Exiles, but that's the cost of not wearing armour I guess. I'm surprised that you think Elrond has low survivability, since he has VIlya, but it's really good to hear all these details. Just facinating.


Thanks, but, when you're a high priority target, there's only so many times 3 fate can save you
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 Post subject: Re: Army Hero Rankings
PostPosted: Sat Jan 25, 2014 9:01 am 
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An absolutely awesome post on high elf heroes there LordElrond :)
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 Post subject: Re: Army Hero Rankings
PostPosted: Sat Jan 25, 2014 9:16 am 
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Gondorian Captain wrote:
An absolutely awesome post on high elf heroes there LordElrond :)


Thanks, I might write an article for the Tomes of Wisdom soon. The only thing really stopping me is that people have said that articles are not often accepted.
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 Post subject: Re: Army Hero Rankings
PostPosted: Sun Jan 26, 2014 1:00 pm 
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LordElrond wrote:
Gondorian Captain wrote:
An absolutely awesome post on high elf heroes there LordElrond :)


Thanks, I might write an article for the Tomes of Wisdom soon. The only thing really stopping me is that people have said that articles are not often accepted.


Yeah, I've noticed this. It's sad since the game changes have made the old strategy articles obsolete in so many ways. :(

But I think you should still give it a go. High Elves are a hot topic right now (several hot topics actually!) and it would be great if future players could benefit from this development. Plus you've just shown you can write about them eloquently and with experience. 8)

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 Post subject: Re: Army Hero Rankings
PostPosted: Sun Jan 26, 2014 1:24 pm 
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Gondorian Captain and I are going to do it together.
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 Post subject: Re: Army Hero Rankings
PostPosted: Sun Jan 26, 2014 7:03 pm 
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That's great news! :D

Durin's Folk:
1. Gimli, Son of Gloin: Gimli has done more damage to my armies than any other single model in three years of gaming. He has a powerful offense, occupies the 90 - 105 point slot that so many deadly heroes occupy, and is practically indestructible.
2. Balin, Son of Fundin: Another crack hero. Not quite the Chuck Norris-clone Gimli is, Balin can still do major damage. Normally a Dwarf King substitute, but with Durin's Axe rises to a more Gimli -esque position.
3. Floi Stonehand: I know fairly little about Floi, but his special rule could really tear the underpinnings out of some models; against most armies he will do great but horde armies will be fairly immune to his charms.
4. Dain Ironfoot. Don't let his low rank scare you off. Dain is a troop killer mainly, since years of age have taken the edge off his fight value; but he is frighteningly good at this, with his +1 axe and high defence. He is also a fantastic leader, with great courage and standfast. But you know what they say - he who fights monsters gets annihilsplalated to little bits when rend gets by the mithril.
5. Captains: After you exhaust all the appropriate named heroes, these guys should lead your warbands.
6. Kings: If you have some spare points you could get one of these instead of a captain. Again only after using named heroes.
7. Murin and Drar: Highly expensive. Unlike Elladan and Elrohir they have no powerful attacking abilities to really pay for this. Iron Hills Vets are Khazad without bodyguard so hmm? not really worth it. Two captains are better.

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 Post subject: Re: Army Hero Rankings
PostPosted: Mon Jan 27, 2014 12:37 am 
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VandalCabbage wrote:
That's great news! :D

Durin's Folk:
1. Gimli, Son of Gloin: Gimli has done more damage to my armies than any other single model in three years of gaming. He has a powerful offense, occupies the 90 - 105 point slot that so many deadly heroes occupy, and is practically indestructible.
2. Balin, Son of Fundin: Another crack hero. Not quite the Chuck Norris-clone Gimli is, Balin can still do major damage. Normally a Dwarf King substitute, but with Durin's Axe rises to a more Gimli -esque position.
3. Floi Stonehand: I know fairly little about Floi, but his special rule could really tear the underpinnings out of some models; against most armies he will do great but horde armies will be fairly immune to his charms.
4. Dain Ironfoot. Don't let his low rank scare you off. Dain is a troop killer mainly, since years of age have taken the edge off his fight value; but he is frighteningly good at this, with his +1 axe and high defence. He is also a fantastic leader, with great courage and standfast. But you know what they say - he who fights monsters gets annihilsplalated to little bits when rend gets by the mithril.
5. Captains: After you exhaust all the appropriate named heroes, these guys should lead your warbands.
6. Kings: If you have some spare points you could get one of these instead of a captain. Again only after using named heroes.
7. Murin and Drar: Highly expensive. Unlike Elladan and Elrohir they have no powerful attacking abilities to really pay for this. Iron Hills Vets are Khazad without bodyguard so hmm? not really worth it. Two captains are better.


What about durin the IV (or VI can't recall)
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 Post subject: Re: Army Hero Rankings
PostPosted: Mon Jan 27, 2014 1:08 am 
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I undoubtedly would have durin as number 1 there

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 Post subject: Re: Army Hero Rankings
PostPosted: Mon Jan 27, 2014 1:22 am 
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Grungehog wrote:
I undoubtedly would have durin as number 1 there

I absolutely detest the model and I used to think he was terrible because I couldn't stand the look of him. When I look at his profile without the pic I realise what a Beast he is. I'll probably convert something or use ReaperMini for him.
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 Post subject: Re: Army Hero Rankings
PostPosted: Mon Jan 27, 2014 10:58 am 
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LordElrond wrote:

This has taken me nigh on 90 mins to write, so to anyone who is reading this, thanks for reading to the end, and just one person reading all this will have made it all worth it.


Thanks,
LordElrond


Well, considering I made a topic called 'why would anyone play high elves' I am glad to read this and I thank you much for your efforts!


Ill have a crack at Isengard in my opinion(this isnt gospel so of course everyones opinions may differ). I did these rankings based on overall usefulness of the characters on all levels meaning taking into consideration games as low as 350 pts etc and higher.


Best to Worst:

#1- This was a very difficult choice.....but Ill have to say that I give it to Mauhur. Reasons I picked him was he had 3 attacks and a fight 5 at 60 pts. He can duel with a lot of heros in combat, and he has a nice option to make his uruk hai have more speed, effectively getting Uruk Hai EXACTLY where they are supposed to be. Negatives are the fact that he has 2 might only.
#2- Vrasku. He has 5 fight as well and also comes with three might. At a low 60 points, the fact he can shoot 2 three+ to hit crossbows a turn is great.
#3- Saruman. Even at low points values with rules like the special ones he has, his wizardy powers, and his heavy might will and fate hes dominant at Id say level 500 and above.
#4-This was a tough one. I have to pick Wolfsbane. He has a low fight, and with all Isengard he has his defense is only ok. But his extra damage and stand fast rule, along with his high might and good will and fate racks him up there. His points value aint bad either.
#5-Uruk Hai Shaman- A whole line of pikemen or Feral Uruk Hai or even berserkers with fate rolls? Yes please.
#6-Sharku- 3 might at 45 points with a warg option. Oh yeah
#7-Ugluk. For the points, good yes and has a good special rule, but other than that, hes not that special.
#8-Lurtz- For the guy that killed Boromir and gave Aragorn a huge test(hint hint GW.....) I cant believe this guy is a soft hero with no special ability and a bow that hits on a 4+ only when he clearly hit Boromir 3 rounds in a row WHILE MOVING. That should be at least a 3+.


That being said, I think all of their heros are good! I love Isengard heros because although I think Lurtz needs to be more expensive and better, they can all lead warbands of very strong fairly priced troops and it helps when you can make your troops enter the battle with fully outfitted gear because of hero pricing!

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 Post subject: Re: Army Hero Rankings
PostPosted: Mon Jan 27, 2014 5:31 pm 
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Arrg, totally forgot Durin and Mardin. I suppose I would put the former below dain, because he's very expensive, and the latter just below Durin, cause an extra might can be handy. To be fair I have zero experience with these two...

-Lordofthebrownring: I don't have much xp with Isenguard but I would personally rate Vrashku above Mauhar for his killing power; is the maruderer upgrade any good? Otherwise I agree with you totally about the heroes; poor old Lurtz. Thanks for your input, and keep it coming people!

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 Post subject: Re: Army Hero Rankings
PostPosted: Mon Jan 27, 2014 6:09 pm 
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Totally disagree with your Dwarf Rankings lol
1. King'Champion. Strength 5 D 9 with 5 fate and 2 banners? Yessir! If used properly he can be the spearhead of your force and demolish everything in your way.
2. Balin son of Fundin. Give him Durin's axe and he becomes in effect a 3 attack hero with +1 to his to wound rolls
3.Gimli-he's really a budget hero with solid offensive capabilities
4. Durin- he's expensive but he's an anchor for your whole army. D9 F 6 and his personal save thanks to his crown is handy to have as he lacks fate.
5. Dain- basically a cheaper, slightly weaker Durin. Still good thou.
6. Murin & Drar - 150 points is a lot to shell out but 6 might with Murin's special sword and Drar's double shot make these two a deadly combo. If you could split them to lead seperate warbands they'd be far higher!
7. Floi Stonehand- A little stronger than a Captain with a situational special. He can be very useful but it takes the right scenario.
8. Captain- A solid, budget hero that's well rounded
9. King- A slightly stronger captain.
10. Shield-bearer - For the price of a captain b you get a hero with only 1 might. He's got some solid specials but he's never worked out for me
11. Mardin -The least useful Dwarf hero. The only real plus is his 3 might as his troll special rarely helps because most trolls kick his butt with their higher FV

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 Post subject: Re: Army Hero Rankings
PostPosted: Mon Jan 27, 2014 8:46 pm 
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I don't get why Balin keeps getting higher scores than Gimli:
1. Gimli has fate instead of will. Fate is usually more handy, especially with such high-def models.
2. Gimli has three attacks to wound. This is better odds than two attacks with +1, IMO. Not to mention Gimli can kill three guys if he rolls well.
3. If faced with a monster, Gimli can just go twohanded with a bunch of guys to help him.
4. Gimli is 5 points cheaper and his alliances are easier to justify themewise (since he's friendly with elves and whatnot).
Ahh well.
To be fair I keep forgetting about the newer heroes (e.g. King's champ) cause I don't know their rules so it's nice to hear about what people think of them.

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 Post subject: Re: Army Hero Rankings
PostPosted: Mon Jan 27, 2014 9:16 pm 
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VandalCabbage wrote:
I don't get why Balin keeps getting higher scores than Gimli: Let me try to help :)
1. Gimli has fate instead of will. Fate is usually more handy, especially with such high-def models.
Fair point but can still be handy to resist those transfixes 8)
2. Gimli has three attacks to wound. This is better odds than two attacks with +1, IMO. Not to mention Gimli can kill three guys if he rolls well.
99% of the time 2 attacks with +1 to wound is better than 3 attacks apart from the (assuming your usual defence 5-6) very rare chance you roll 3 5-6's. (want to say 4% chance but probably wrong)

3. If faced with a monster, Gimli can just go twohanded with a bunch of guys to help him.
And so do the same as Balin but with one less attack :(
4. Gimli is 5 points cheaper and his alliances are easier to justify themewise (since he's friendly with elves and whatnot).
Balin's 5 points cheaper than Gimli though fair point on the theme though that doesn't effect their in game effectiveness
Ahh well.
To be fair I keep forgetting about the newer heroes (e.g. King's champ) cause I don't know their rules so it's nice to hear about what people think of them.


Submit to the greatness of Balin :-D
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 Post subject: Re: Army Hero Rankings
PostPosted: Mon Jan 27, 2014 9:20 pm 
Craftsman
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Joined: Sun Jan 19, 2014 1:12 pm
Posts: 286
Very good defence of Balin Ringil, I am convinced...
Ahh I can do nothing but kneel before the Lord of Moria...
Perhaps it is just that Gimli is better v.s. lower defense guys. Although my dead easterlings would not be very comforted.

_________________
"Release the Kragle!"
They were waiting 45 minutes to make that pun.
Totally worth it.
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