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 Post subject: Re: Feral and berserkers
PostPosted: Sun Apr 06, 2014 12:57 pm 
Loremaster
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Yeah by the way...I dont know about where you live, but ferals are OOP now by me, so thats a factor too......

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 Post subject: Re: Feral and berserkers
PostPosted: Sun Apr 06, 2014 3:06 pm 
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well im from Portugal... might be ahrd to find them... but taking count the store still holds 2 blisters of grey company rangers and most metal stuff and 24 man size boxes... I think i could get a good bargain for ferals :)
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 Post subject: Re: Feral and berserkers
PostPosted: Sun Apr 06, 2014 5:22 pm 
Ringwraith
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Thanks for the kind words Marsbar, humbling as always :-)

Well, as the primary proponent of Ferals I should probably speak up, this thread seems to be written for me! :-) *cracks knuckles*

I do rate Ferals very highly and, all things being even, probably more so than Beserkers but you can't simply compare the two statlines and relative points values, you have to consider how they will function on the battlefield and this swings the comparison somewhat. This is how I see things with my traditional warrior build (which, as Marsbar says, is 1/3 crossbows and 2/3s Ferals/Berserkers):

Because you are spending either 12 or 15 points on your troops you're almost always outnumbered and so you need shamans with channelled Fury to keep your troops alive. I would include one shaman as my second warband leader (so 300 points+) and a second shaman at around the 800 pony mark. I'll now break down the perceived advantages of Beserkers in this army:

The importance of D6: Having Fury in play makes the difference in defence less important as Fury saves just as many D5 models as it does D6. Also, the army relies on hitting the enemy hard and fast, winning fights and not getting hit, you need to charge in fast and win fights and kill quickly. If you don't make that early break-through then the enemy will overwhelm you very quickly, will almost certainly outnumber you, roll more dice to wound and so probably get the kill whether you're D5 or D6.

The importance of 2-Handed weapons: I don't think the 2-handed weapons are a big plus, the main advantage of 2 attack models is the increased likelihood of winning fights, you don't want to take that away by going 2-handed. I might go 2-handed once or twice in a game if I trap a big hero/monster but generally, with 2 attack S4 models you're normally better off guaranteeing the win than taking +1 to wound, if it's trapped (the only time I'd really consider going 2-Handed) you'll probably kill whatever you're fighting anyway.

The importance of Courage 7: This again doesn't come into things too often as you'll have Chanelled Fury in play so be passing all your courage tests anyway. Even if they're out of range courage 5 is normally more than good enough. The jump from a normal Uruk's courage 3 to a Feral's courage 5 is much more significant than the jump from a Feral's Courage 5 to a Beserker's Courage 7. I always use the analogy that you never hear elves complaining about low courage!

The main advantage of Ferals is that you get 5 Ferals for the price of 4 Beserkers, not only does that have a big impact on your break point but it gives you more 2 attack models on the table killing the enemy. As I said, you're going to be outnumbered so the more models you can get the better. If you take Beserkers, you'll have less numbers which mean the enemy will outnumber you by a larger margin which means they'll get more models into combat with you so they'll have more dice rolling to wound to get that 6. This is where you need to think about things as a whole rather than as a direct comparison. The Beserker army will be fighting against worse odds than the Feral army and so the enemy's extra numbers will largely negate the defence bonus.

Obviously all of these things are taken as an average when facing the vast majority of armies - I'm well aware that if you come up against a Ringwraith leading an army of monsters (oh hey Marsbar) then the Beserkers suddenly look FAR more appealing (you won't have Fury thanks to Sap Will so the Courage 7 becomes important, you'll have more reason to go 2-Handed and you'll need D6 against the S6 monsters etc.). These are standard tactics/comparisons against most armies, things OBVIOUSLY change if your opponent has a force wells designed to counter Ferals.

Ultimately of course it comes down to who you're playing. I used the Feral army a lot on the tourney scene last year when there were an awful lot of Evil armies about who largely have S2 or S4 shooting and S4 combat attacks so the difference between D5 & D6 is irreverent. However, I think there has been a shift in the meta this year to a greater proportion of Good armies (largely brought about by renewed interest in Leggy, Tauriel and elves, Alfrid and cheap Laketown spears, Dwalin leading Erebor dwarves etc.) which means a far great proportion of S3 combat attacks and lots of elves with S3 shooting. Suddenly, the Beserker's Defence 6 becomes faaaaaar more important. It would be remiss of me not to mention that my army for the Shadow and Sorcery tournament last weekend (which I won) consisted of 8 Beserkers and 4 Ferals, as you'll find out when I get my report written up there's no doubt in my mind that I won because I took Beserkers instead of Ferals. However, I took that army predicting that there would be an awful lot of S3 models and shooting in the field (which there were) so it would make a big difference.

At its very simplest, It basically comes down to Ferals for fighting Evil and Beserker's for fighting Good. In a tournament setting, I think the extra numbers of the Ferals will give you more versatility but given the abundance of Good armies at the moment means you might be better off going with Beserkers.

Sorry for banging on for so long, I just find this a very interesting debate and it's quite close to my heart given my recent experience with exactly this kind of army!

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 Post subject: Re: Feral and berserkers
PostPosted: Sun Apr 06, 2014 5:46 pm 
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very nice explanation ty for clarify this even further :)

I think Im gonna be more like a berserker lover though lol
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 Post subject: Re: Feral and berserkers
PostPosted: Sun Apr 06, 2014 7:05 pm 
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Thank you Dr Grant. You said all the things in detail I didn't feel like saying because I thought it would fall on deaf ears.


Galanur....it just seems like from the beginning you've wanted berserkers, and I don't know why.....but if you like em use em. Just make sure you balance it with the rest of your army

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 Post subject: Re: Feral and berserkers
PostPosted: Sun Apr 06, 2014 7:52 pm 
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prettier :P
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 Post subject: Re: Feral and berserkers
PostPosted: Sun Apr 06, 2014 7:54 pm 
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Galanur wrote:
prettier :P


I don't think that word fits Uruk-hai lol

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 Post subject: Re: Feral and berserkers
PostPosted: Sun Apr 06, 2014 8:05 pm 
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well... ok fine I do think the´re visually more appealling to me...
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 Post subject: Re: Feral and berserkers
PostPosted: Sun Apr 06, 2014 10:49 pm 
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I figured as much. A lot of people have that in their heads....the feral is so much more useful overall....and yes, the berserkers are cool and I wish they had better profiles because of the movies...I mean...they killed Haldir, and stormed the walls and did the most damage. They should be awesome.

But once you get past that, the feral is the way to go.

Once youve seen a well painted feral up close you like them more, Trust me.

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 Post subject: Re: Feral and berserkers
PostPosted: Sun Apr 06, 2014 10:59 pm 
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LordoftheBrownRing wrote:
I figured as much. A lot of people have that in their heads....the feral is so much more useful overall....and yes, the berserkers are cool and I wish they had better profiles because of the movies...I mean...they killed Haldir, and stormed the walls and did the most damage. They should be awesome.

But once you get past that, the feral is the way to go.

Once youve seen a well painted feral up close you like them more, Trust me.


I can vouch for the last part. Painting up the three for the GBHL I realized they are incredible sculpts

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 Post subject: Re: Feral and berserkers
PostPosted: Sun Apr 06, 2014 11:43 pm 
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Yeah I had to paint up 12 for the tournament I went to. I suck at painting, but I still like em.

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 Post subject: Re: Feral and berserkers
PostPosted: Mon Apr 07, 2014 3:17 pm 
Ringwraith
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Galanur wrote:
well... ok fine I do think the´re visually more appealling to me...


Have to agree there, ferals just don't do it for me. Something about the big white hand with blood splatters is far more fun to paint and look at on the table.
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